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Target Shooting by Match - Match Results => OPEN - 10m OFF HAND AIR RIFLE MATCH - Post Results => : riflejunkie February 11, 2009, 11:30:29 PM
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OK, ladies and gentlemen, Match #2 will be beginning officially tomorrow, ( Friday) midnight and ends Sunday midnight. In hindsight it seems dumb (http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-embarassed.gif)to postpone tallying scores for a day after the match is over, so get those scores in by Sunday Midnight. My mentality this last match was great anticipation watching the final minutes of the match wind down on Sunday night and that led to some confusion on my part. This is a learning process for me as well, so here are the rules for MATCH #2
TARGETAgain we will use the Gamo target or a downloaded version of it. These things are pretty cheap and they are at Walmart, sports Authority and Dicks Sporting Goods and I suspect you would find them at Bass Pro Shop as well. Pyramid Air has them, so order a bunch when you make your pellet order. Since domed pellets seem more accurate than wadcutters a scoring guage would be a dandy little investment and will result in getting you a couple of extra points since the hole in the target left by those JSB's and CPL's are a little smaller than the size of the pellet. You can get a scoring guage at ChampChoice for about $10.
Course of Fire Just like last time the course of fire is five (5) shots per target on four (4)targets for a total of twenty(20) shots for score at a distance of 10 meters or 33 feet. A possible 200 points. The Gamo target does not have an X ring therefore our "X" is designated as any shot falling inside the 10 ring that does NOT touch the line. For you previously uninfected target shooters, the value of the X is still 10 but is used as a tie breaker. So if two shooters haveidentical scores, the shooter with the highest # of X's is the winner.
The standing position or offhand is the position used with no sling or other artificial support. Health reasons may dictate an adjustment in position so long as there is no artificial support of rifle/pistol/carbine or elbows.
Did I leave anything out?
**This match is shot at a relatively close distance, so eye protection is really a good idea. All it takes is one accident and you have a permanent injury. Have fun and alwaysshoot safe.
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Hey Charlotte:
That is 20 consecutive shots in sequence, at 4 targets, right? Not your 20 best shots. I suspect that is understood, but just to be clear. Practice all you want, but when you officially start your "match", it is the next 20 consecutive shots that count. I don't know whether .22 wad cutters are an advantage over .177 wad cutters -- on the one hand, if you are a very good shot, it is easier to get more shots inside the 10 ring without cutting the line. On the other hand, if you are a not-so-good shot, cutting more rings may be an advantage. Dittos on the shot gage, I suspect. Good luck all! Have fun and be safe.
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Last weekend I shot about 20 targets and was consistently shooting 43 and 44 target after target. So I was consistently inconsistent. To be fair and more like a real match I agree with you on 20 consecutive shots, but my shooting last wekend indicates it would have done me no good to have done anything to try and improve my score. So, YES 20 consecutive shots.
As for the difference in calibers my original thinking was that .177 through .22 is OK. In any normal sanctioned match you are restricted to .177. How do you folks feel about the caliber issue. We can restrict it or leave it as it is. I don't have a .22 so it makes no difference to me. I've shot my 17 HMR against Garands, M1A's and everything else and I felt no disadvantage at 100 yds. Let's get some feedback. I'd say nothing larger than .22 but you guys may prefer to limit it to .177. What say you?
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I only have a .22! So I'm biased towards keeping it friendly and letting both .177 and .22 ( the two most common) shoot!
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What about a DAQ LA outlaw (.457 caliber).....I am sure it would break 2 or 3 or 4 rings at a time....and the backstop.....and the fence behind that....and the neighbor's car behind that.... ;-)
Martin D. White
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Why not set the match into a few sub-classes?? Like .177/.20 caliber class, and a .22/.25 caliber class. Also maybe a springer class, a PCP/co2 class, and a pumper class. I've a feeling this match competitions are going to draw alot of interest as time go on,...so filling in a certain class of rifles and calibers shouldn't take too long. As for the actual targets,....I'm still not for certain. I'd prefer to use the Gamo5 targets and shoot four rounds per target. Plus,.. Bro' Andy advised blowing up the down-load to 125% when printing it out to match the size of the original gamo targets. 3/16" to a 1/4" difference on the nine ring is a big difference when compared next to each other. So if there is anybody out there that didn't catch this on the first 'go-round' by measuring the targets,...Like I didn't do,....then here's the way to even the field of competition!!!! There's my imput on fareness and sportsmanship for everyones benefit. tjk
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We have been discussing a pumper only match on the pump rifle target forum. It sounds like it will be run concurrently with the general match.
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I plan on shooting both the pump match and general match in the same session using different airguns.
Martin D. White
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May I suggest we not get too wrapped up in all of these details and variations for a simple weekender off-hand shooting match, at least for this one. Cal 177, 20 and 22 are fine with me. 25 cal may be pushing it, but if that's all you have and you want to shoot, OK, why not? Nothing larger though. My main point is not to shoot 10 targets of 5-shot groups and then cherry pick your best 4 targets. Practice all you want, but when you decide to go for your score, 20 consecutive shots. And if those are not so good, you don't have to enter those 20. Try again, but for match scores, the 20 shots that count need to be consecutive, once you start keeping score.
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Which ever way it goes, I plan on shooting in the pumper gate match as well. So who want's to set the guide-lines for this one. Ten yards still sound ok?? Perhaps a different target so some folks might not get the matches confused. If there's no objection, I'll come up with the regs for the pumper match. Any thoughts or suggestions?!? If so, let's start a new thread in the pumper gate, and leave this thread to it's original subject and gate. EM me if you want. tjk
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Well Dr Tommy,...I agree with you then. Let's keep it simple. No "cherry pickers" allowed!!! tjk
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Anybody have a decent working link to ChampChoice?
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I need better paper. My targets I printed out tear with every shot making it hard to score.
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Ron
Put a piece of cardboard behind the target. The cardboard acts like a cutting board, so the wadcutter can "punch" a cleaner hole.
When the hole gets ragged, the cardboard is probably shotup and needs to be replaced. I collect cardboard boxed just for this reason, and its amazing how much cardboard you use in the normal course of life. My wife has told me to "stop collecting cardboard!"
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re targets
Big-5 does not carry the Gamo target. At least the one near me does not.
I'll try WalMart the next time I'm near one.
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Try printing them out on 110lb cardstock. You can get it from stores that sell printer paper. I picked up a bunle of 150 pcs at WalMart for about $4.
Makes nice targets.
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I'll go on a target hunt tomorrow.
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...today specifically for the multi-pumper rifle match.(http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif) I cheapy one though....Remington Air Master 77... .177 pellet and bb's. I think I'll shoot bb's for this match.....just to see how accurate they are.
Ten yards sound fine to me. Same Gamo 5 target sheet. I'll go iron sights for this one......
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I went to 2 hunting/outdoor sports shops and 2 Walmarts and 2 Canadian Tire chains....while searching for a multi-pumper today....got the pumper but none had the regular Gamo target. cry....oh well....stuck with the smaller "10" Gamo 5 target sheets.
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Viper - 2/12/2009 5:05 PM
Anybody have a decent working link to ChampChoice?
http://www.champchoice.com/
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ronbeaux - 2/12/2009 5:57 PM
I need better paper. My targets I printed out tear with every shot making it hard to score.
That's the problem with printing your own targets. Targets are not that expensive. Use your printer targets for practice and get some real ones for the match.
Pyramid Air has the Gamo targets.
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TCups - 2/12/2009 10:25 AM
May I suggest we not get too wrapped up in all of these details and variations for a simple weekender off-hand shooting match, at least for this one. Cal 177, 20 and 22 are fine with me. 25 cal may be pushing it, but if that's all you have and you want to shoot, OK, why not? Nothing larger though. My main point is not to shoot 10 targets of 5-shot groups and then cherry pick your best 4 targets. Practice all you want, but when you decide to go for your score, 20 consecutive shots. And if those are not so good, you don't have to enter those 20. Try again, but for match scores, the 20 shots that count need to be consecutive, once you start keeping score.
I think .177-.22 should do it Doc. In a "normal" match that's how the shooting is done. You don't get to cherry pick your "sighter" bull. It is the top bull and the ones below are all for score.
The thing about online matches is you have the opportunity to see how much you can improve, or it gives you some structure for practice.
BTW, without going to google, who knows who Matt Emmons or Hank Gray are? Consider why I asked.
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Well, I got home a bit early today Thursday and got some practice in for the weekend match! I shot 175,183, 187, 185, 168. So I guess it is too early for this to be the official entry, but I was proud of my 187, and hope to do better! The 187 may have actually been a 186, but that 1-hole group felt so good, I gave myself the benefit of the doubt. These with the Walther LGR-U, Lefty, standing, off-hand with Vogel Greens. I love this rifle.
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Really nice Doc. I love my FWB too. How much does your Walther weigh?
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Charlotte:
11# according to the bathroom scale. BTW, is it cheating to use a yellow highlighter on the 10 spot of the bull? Seems to make it easier for me to find the center with these old eyeballs.
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Hey guys and gals....I think we're in trouble....this guy have a REAL target rifle heh heh....and he's using expensive pellets. Excellent shooting btw TCups.
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Yep,TOTALY ILLEGAL. "The target shall not be modified in any way so as to give and unfair advantage in sighting or aquiring a shot. Especially if it means that you shoot better than me"
Nice shooting!!
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You know, the hardest damned thing to master is making yourself put the rifle down and start your entire routine again when the sight picture just isn't right. I know exactly whenever I have made a good shot (I can now usually see the hole appear in the paper) and exactly whenever I shot a flyer, but it takes such mental discipline to NOT shoot unless everything is perfect. I believe that to be the first 1-hole 5-shot group I have ever shot off hand at 10 meters, so I know I can do it. I think I need to go up one or two clicks on the elevation too. BTW, just for grins, I tried some 10-meter groups with the BSA Scorpion .177 and the AA- 410 ERB .22 -- not even close. And the scope just gave me motion sickness. And the Daisy 853 is pretty good, but once you get accustomed to the heft of a serious target rifle, it is hard to go back to a light-weight rifle and shoot with the same technique.
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TCups - 2/12/2009 9:40 PM
Charlotte:
11# according to the bathroom scale. BTW, is it cheating to use a yellow highlighter on the 10 spot of the bull? Seems to make it easier for me to find the center with these old eyeballs.
I have a yellow tinted lens I put on my knobloch's that gives me extra clarity. You know if we get enough people around here to get rifles like these we could have a prone match. Smallbore prone is my main thing and omg is it harder than you'd think. Position is everything and you can't really understand that until you shoot a bunch of 9's and 8's and you are thinking, "my sights were perfectly on target." Then you close your eyes and breathe 3 good breaths and open them and then you can see why you are out in the 8 and 9 rings. Position, position, position.
Halelujah, you have Ways of The Rifle. Everybody who wants to shoot at a higher level needs to own that book.
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i feel we should all shoot what you brung.had a good time need more of that.i like to see what others are shooting with.
a man has to know his limitations?????
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TC
You can see that yellow at 10m????
You got GOOD eyes.
I just checked, the black on the Gamo out thru the 6 ring is about 60mm, that is 2x the diameter of the black on an ISSF 10m AR target (30.5mm).
I think I'm goina have to switch to a larger front insert, to accomodate the larger bull.
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Gosh Tommy !!!!!
What have you been eaten ? Shootin groups like that, that's some shootin there !
Beautiful shootin buddy ! Your making me start to turn green again, and you know it aint easy being green !
Lookin forward to seeing you in the match,,,,I think ???
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Charlotte:
I fear if I get down to shoot in the prone position, I will have to have someone help me get back up (unless I can shoot prone from my bed or the couch). And how am I going to cock that single pumper side arm when I am prone? Can't we just shoot standing or sitting? And I would like to shoot matches on the 5-bull 10 meter Edelmann targets, too, so I don't have to keep putting the rifle down and walking over to replace the target every 5 shots.
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You're killing me, Tommy, there's a very nice Diana 75 TO1 for sale on the Yellow right now for $525, it's been there awhile, and the price keeps coming down. Can't understand why no one has snapped it up, I'm trying to figure out how to convince my wife that I NEED a vintage 10M match rifle. As you might suspect, I'm not having much luck :-).
So the extra weight makes that much difference, huh? I though it was just stock design, much as I love my Cyclone, it's not nearly as good as the S200 for off hand shooting. Your comment about the 853 has me thinking, I've been considering carving a new stock for mine, more like the 753 or even my S200 in design. But if weight helps, maybe I'll make it out of Ipe, a very heavy, hard tropical hardwood. Think double the weight of black walnut, but very similar in look and grain structure. I still don't understand it, but despite all the issues I have with that rifle at the moment, every time I pick it up I seem to hit what I'm shooting at. Can't wait for my rebuild kit and new front sight to get here. Later.
Dave
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Dave
The weight of the rifle helps to dampen the "wobble" of a shooter.
The idea is physics, it takes more effort to move more mass. So with a heavier rifle, body wobble is dampened.
To see this compare a heavy and light rifle, and you will see that you can shoot a heavier rifle better, but you don't want to carry one very far. Hence the compromise for a hunting rifle.
BUT the location of the center of gravity also has an effect on barrel wobble reduction.
Target rifles have muzzle weight to move the CG forward to better dampen the barrel wobble.
If you make a stock for target shooting, make it like the 753, with a vertical pistol grip.
You also want the forestock to be deeper, so there is more depth so it will be easier for your forward arm to hold it up.
Look at pictures of target rifles for ideas.
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Inertia - the property that tends to keep moving bodies in motion and bodies at rest motionless. The greater the mass (weight) of an air rifle, the more energy it takes to overcome the inertia and start it in motion again, once it has come to rest. The heavier the rifle, the better you will eventually become at holding it absolutely motionless for the critical fraction of a second it takes to fire accurately.
I don't perceive that the COG of the Walther has been moved forward very much. Rather, it seems the barrel weight is more to balance the overall weight of the rifle and off-set the weight of the heavier German walnut stock, but perhaps I am wrong.
Shooting with a padded glove on my right hand (I shoot LH) seems to help. I use an old weight lifter's glove rather than a true target shooting glove.
Raising the front and rear sights with 2 cm Anschutz risers, spacing out the stock 2 cm, and dropping the rear recoil pad 2 cm means I can bring this rifle to a firm cheek weld just under the zygoma (cheekbone) without bending my neck to one side, and with the diopter sights lined up in the center of my visual field with my neck and shoulder completely relaxed. Every other rifle I own requires some degree of bending my neck or "hunching up" my shoulder a bit, or both, to line up the sights properly. For critical target shooting, any tension in the neck or shoulder is a bad thing.
If you are serious about learning how to shoot off hand as well as you possibly can, then, 1) buy a copy of "The Ways of the Rifle" -- best money you will ever spend on the hobby of target shooting -- and, 2) make sure your rifle "fits" perfectly. To my friend J. Woodcock, I say "thank you" for pointing out both of these truths to me early on, just when I started to get hooked on air rifles, and for pointing me toward the Walter LGR-U and encouraging me to take the leap. This was my very first target rifle and my very first dedicated LH stocked air rifle (big step for a right-hander).
And as for that 10-meter rifle on the "yellow", go for it! In my opinion (an amateur who has been non-competitively target shooting air rifles less than a year) my attempt to master a 10-meter air rifle has taught me more about the sport of shooting than anything else I have learned the previous 50-some-odd years. Of all the air rifles I own, my Walther is probably be the last I would ever consider selling.
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What about Creedmore? At 10 meters? :)
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Good job pointing out that the book "The Ways of The Rifle" is worth having. The way I look at it is this, shooting is my love. For me, it replaced prozac. When I'm shooting, all my problems and distractions just go away and there is nothing else in my universe but sight alignment and trigger control. I have my limits on what I can spend, but just to give you my perspective two nights ago my daughter and I went out for drinks. I had an Irish coffee and she had 2 double Jamesons and the bill was $29. The time spent including driving was about 2 hours and I can't put a price on time spent with my 12 year old(http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif)but that is nearly the price of a brick of rimfire practice ammo which would last me about 3 weekends. It's more than the cost of a box of CPL's and how long will that last? For what they are, the Walther, FWB300 and even the 753/853 Daisy Avanti are relatively cheap entertainment. The cost of targets and pellets and maybe a nice bookon shooting are pretty small when you think about what you will spend going to a movie or out for a couple of drinks. The Gamo targets are $5 for a hundred. The 12 bull 10 meter targets are about $12 for a hundred. I drink alcohol very infrequently, so everytime I spend money on it I'm thinking "I could have spent this money on shooting and I'd be happier." Live a little.
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I suspect we are in the "Golden Age" of air gunning. And I fear there will come a time, perhaps soon, when Americans will not be able to just go on line and order up a fine air rifle. And consider what the prices of formerly "inexpensive" firearms have done over the years. For example, I think I gave less than $300 for my M1A 7.62 mm some years ago, before Clinton tried to ban them - price one now! IMO, if you think you might ever want to own and shoot a fine target air rifle, now is a good time to jump. When all this Monopoly money being printed by the government causes inflation to kick in (and it will, soon, with a vengence), then a quality $500-750 target rifle is going to be unobtainable.
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re shooting glove
The shooting glove is only ONE glove, for the support hand (under the forestock). What seems to always get confusing is; right-handers use a left hand glove (left hand is under the forestock), and left-handers use a right hand glove.
The glove only needs to be padded; to protect your knuckles (if you rest the rifle on the knuckles) or to isolate the rifle from your blood pulse (if you rest the rifle on the palm).
To that end any glove with enough padding the appropriate place will do. Example, to protect my knuckles, an old ski glove would work fine.
For those that shoot w the rifle on the knuckles, that padding is important. I hurt my knuckles early on, because I was using an old work glove that did not have any padding (didn't know any better back then), and that 11 pound rifle resting on 2 knuckles really did a number on them.
Of course if you can, just get a shooting glove. You don't need the most expensive one.
re support
Speaking of shooting glove, there is another item that those of you with a 10m match rifle should use. This is a BACK BELT.
Does not have to be expensive, mine is from Home Depot.
The back belt will support your lower back while in the shooting position. And this becomes important when you are holding an 11 pound match rifle, vs a lightweight sportster rifle.
10m match shooters wear an "outfit" of which a shooting jacket is a part of. The jacket provides support to the back. w/o the jacket, you have no extra support, hence the recommendation of a back belt.
note: A back belt is NOT legal in sanctioned 10m matches. But for casual home use, protect your back and use the back belt.
re Ways of the Rifle
I wish I had that book when I started 10m AR.
While a coach is important, that book is the next best thing to having a coach.
It is hard to shoot well or improve when you have no idea what you are doing right and wrong.
re muzzle weight
I put one on my rifle and it made a big difference, to me. w/o the weight, the muzzle had more movement (wobble).
Same idea of inertia, but specifically for the front sight/muzzle.
Thats why when you look at many of the target rifles you see that big muzzle weight out front. Take it off and the rifle becomes harder to hold on target.
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Got up early this morning (around 430A) so I could finish up the office before noon and have this afternoon to shoot. I tweaked the rear iris and diopter sight some and even put in my contact lenses. I set up my tripod and moved the felt-lined pie tin to the top of the tripod to act as a pellet tray and a place to prop up the Walther when I changed out the targets. This turns out to work great for indoor target shooting -- out the bedroom door, down the hall, and into the "junk room". Shooting the Walther LGR-U / 177 single pump pneumatic with Vogel "Greens", indoors at 10 meters (33 ft) measured, I shot about 25 practice rounds and then scored the following 5 scores on 100 consecutive shots: 183, 180, 179, 179, 188. Here is my 188 score, posted to give you guys something to shoot at. Damned if I didn't shoot the 8, then the 7 as the first two shots of the last group! I was already counting up my score. I just knew I would break 190 (LOL). Anyway, then I re-doubled my efforts and shot the last three 10's. I think I will take a nap now and get ready for dinner tonight with my sweetie. Good luck all!
PS: Ronbeaux - Look! No yellow hilighter! You are on your own, bro. No excuses.
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Looks like we're getting a bit serious on this one! Think I'll get out the special shooting hat for tomorrow!
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Tremendous! I just finished my multi pump match for posting. That is as soon as I get the ice pack off my arm!!
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Well after a morning without coffee and cigs, I went down to the range to shoot match#2! With a little breeze going across the range, I got the Gamo out of it's bag. A few breathing exercises later and I was up to the plate! I was determined this time to get a good score! All the time, Charlottes words were running through my head! I closed my eyes and took a few breaths, opened them and the target was nowhere to be seen! A quick adjustment of the feet and eyes closed again! This time, I was in the ball park! First shot on the 6-7 line, bugger! After that, I settled down and was happy with my shooting until shot eleven when I changed for a new target! First shot on that target got me a 4-5 line, bugger again! Composure Andy, composure!! After that flier, I settled again and finished the match! Next week will be better I thought lighting up the first cig and pouring myself a coffee from the flask!
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Okay....dumb question here...maybe.
In scoring, when you hit a ring do you count the higher or lower number. The reason I ask, I might have added up my score on the low side.
(http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv67/Silverado1959/Target%20Results%20Feb09/Feb12_2009002.jpg?t=1234634845)
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We're using inward gauging which means you count the higher scoring number if you break the line! I think you may have robbed yourself of quite a few points! I mark you up as 183, but there's an iffy shot on the last target so I gave you the benefit!
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Truman - 2/14/2009 1:19 PM
We're using inward gauging which means you count the higher scoring number if you break the line! I think you may have robbed yourself of quite a few points! I mark you up as 183, but there's an iffy shot on the last target so I gave you the benefit!
Thanks. The last target you counted the correctly. Photo is slightly blurry. Gonna have to work on that. Two weeks ago, I was lucky to get anything in the 9/10 area. Some were even outside the 5 area! All the info on this forum has made for a real addictive pastime!
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I know, I'm totally hooked now! Since last week, my groups have closed up a bit too! Now, I'm going through the process of sweettalking the missis into letting my get a PCP aswell! I only want the PCP so I can do all three positions without resorting to strange contortions while cocking it! (Well that's what I tell her anyway!)
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Here is my score(http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/patyac/009-2.jpg)(http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/patyac/010-1.jpg)(http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/patyac/011-1.jpg) didn't post correctly see below re[ly
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(http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/patyac/009-2.jpg) (http://s446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/patyac/?action=view¤t=009-2.jpg)(http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/patyac/011.jpg) (http://s446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/patyac/?action=view¤t=011.jpg)(http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/patyac/009-3.jpg) (http://s446.photobucket.com/albums/qq187/patyac/?action=view¤t=009-3.jpg)
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Not sure if it's worth the bother, but here's my scores.
Changed guns for this match. Think I'll keep working with it.
Rifle: IZH MP512-M in .22 caliber with custom wood stock and BSA 4x32AO scope. I can actually see that there are numbers on the targets now!
Ammo: Daisy Precision Max. Tried RWS Superdomes, but they didn't work as well as the Daisies.
Score: 158. Having issues allowing for wind coming from the right.
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This is getting serious! I was looking forward to shooting this match. After last weekend shooting with Disco, I decided to go with something heavier this time. I used the RWS 850 converted to HPA with 6-18x50 scope and padded cheek piece for better cheek weld. The air tank and big scope add some weight to the rifle. And it worked!!! My score was 180! Pellets used were .22 Superdomes. I am still figuring out what pellets this rifle likes best. These matches are a lot of fun, Charlotte, good work!
Chris
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Well my 853 blew a seal so I used the RWS 24 with 4x scope. CPL pellets
Score is 174
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d153/ronbeaux/BBQ%20stuff/bbq%202/bbq%203/DSC02171.jpg)
Off hand outside with off and on drizzle rain.
Edit:
drop 3 points for a 171