GTA
Target Shooting by Match - Match Results => OPEN - 5m AIR PISTOL MATCH - 1 OR 2 HANDED - Post => : JQR March 22, 2009, 01:55:31 PM
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GO SHOOT SOMETHING....(made of paper and mounted on a safe backstop...)
Target links, all the same just different color centers.
Grey http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/JQR25/targets/sqaures.jpg
Red http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/JQR25/targets/sqaures2.jpg
Black http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/JQR25/targets/sqaures3.jpg
This weeks match will run through midnight Sunday 3/29/2009.
I'll try to get the sticky at the top of the forum edited to include the target links and take out last weeks dates.
Always open to suggestions for improvement.
Sounds like a few folks want larger bulls. I think we'll get 'better' using smaller centers. "Aim small - miss small' but... majority rules.
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I'm with you, Jeff. Smaller targets are better for improving your technique.
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I like the small bulls.....like you said....Aim Small...Hit Small. With my Crosman 1377 stock trigger at 18lbs or so.... heh heh, I probably won't hit anything off-hand....but with a 2-hand grip I might get a 45% hit ratio.
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Hey Bill,
Can we post more than one score each week?
George
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Hey Guys,
Just had to post this somewhere. As the grandson (8) and I were strolling thru Academy yesterday, a "wounded" (open package, one scratch where dropped) Crosman 1377 pistol caught my eye. After a discussion with the floor manager on price, the pistol found its way to my house.
:0)
After a quick sight-in this morning, I shot my first pistol target in misting rain. I can probably do better once I get a feel for the trigger, etc.
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I think the contention that a smaller target improves your aim and technique is open to debate. It certainly doesn't improve mine, but that may be due to my eyesight. I find that you have to be able to see the target well to aim well, and with open sights, that it is much easier to consistently center up on a 60 mm bull than a 10 mm bull. Square targets also make the scoring somewhat arbitrary, as the corner of the square can score 10 on a shot that would otherwise be a 9 at the same distance from the center of the bull. My preference would be for a standard ISSF 10 meter pistol target with a nice, big black bull.
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Tommy may be right here. And, I may have to reconsider my position on small targets for pistol shooting. After shooting my new 1377, I found I had real difficulty getting a good sight picture with fixed sights on the small square targets. These old eyes need more contrast for a good sight picture.
To keep it simple, why not just shoot the Gamo5 target. Scoring five shots per target is sometimes difficult on computer printed targets. So I suggest: Bottom target for practice, three shots each in upper two, and two shots each in lower two for max of 100 points. Any other ideas?
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I don't care what target we use, I just want to shoot a weekly pistol target.
I'm good with the Gamo5 but I've been shooting it for many months (I made it with a little help from a gamo target). I'm a 98 -100 shooter on that target at 5m.
I've been working on another that you may like. it's a 10m air pistol target, reduced 50% and I squeezed 10 on a page. I haven't really prettied it up (I lost a few edges) but tell me what you think. (note that the 50% reduction was done before print formating so it probably is actually more like 47-48% of an official target).
This may provide the sight picture while maintaining a smaller bull.
I can make target posted above (by TCups I think) too, or something very close, if folks prefer that route.
(http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/JQR25/targets/1010mpistolsat50.jpg) (http://s147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/JQR25/targets/?action=view¤t=1010mpistolsat50.jpg)
Direct Link
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/JQR25/targets/1010mpistolsat50.jpg
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CaptGeorge, those 1377 pistol's triggers are heavy eh? I've a hard time getting good accuracy due to that.....I tend to shoot left.... Too bad CharlieDaTuna don't make the sears for them anymore.....I would change it in a heartbeat......
Which target are we using this week? I think I'll use the one we used last week....the square one that CaptGeorge also used since I've a few photocopied.....
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Jeff, I like that 50% reduction target. I like the idea of only shooting one or two shots per bullseye, to aid in scoring. Maybe still two shots per bull, like we have been doing with the other target?
Anyone else like to try this one?
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Yeah, lets use the squares this week. I know most folks want a consistent target so I would like input before we change. If we change.
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I like it too. Lets stick with squares this week though. I'd like more input and we'll need to decide if we are doing 1 or 2 shots per.
I'll try to center the targets in the mean time.
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As I mentioned in the open rifle and steroid matches, I shot yesterday during an unexpected free afternoon and had a BANNER afternoon. All in all, I shot above my ability but I struggled a bit with my pistol. I blame the celebratory beer (or two) after the Open Rifle shoot and I place an equal amount of blame on the celebratory beer after the Steroid shoot. But beer or not... my pistol and I are going through a difficult time. I'm going to buy it some nice cleaning patches and sweet talk it this week.
(((forgive the pink paper - I print on scrap paper from work whenever I can - usually it's blue or goldenrod))))
(http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/JQR25/OpenPistol002.jpg) (http://s147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/JQR25/?action=view¤t=OpenPistol002.jpg)
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I'm with TCups on the standard 10m ISSF/NRA AP target at 10 meters.
The primary reason for me is, if I am shooting my match pistol, I want to have as consistent a sight picture as possible to the regulation target.
- In fact, if I shot the Gamo target, I would make my own targets, with the black bull matching the regulation ISSF/NRA AP target.
For those that do not have a clear 10 meters to shoot in, a reduced range target would be appropriate.
- At 5 meters, I would recommend a 50% scale reduced target, to keep the sight picture the same.
- However, I would recommend 6 meters as the minimum reduced range.
- One issue with a reduced range target is the pellet. As you scale the target down, the hole the pellet punches is still the same size. While this OK for casual shooting, to do it right, the rings have to adjusted for the pellet diameter being the same size regardless of range. It is a little complicated, but quite doable once you have the formula.
The problem with "aim small...hit small" is, you can't hit what you can't see.
Using open sight, my middle age eyes can't see the small bulls that you younger guys can see, or are you guys using a scope on your pistol?
One problem with multi-target targets (like 10 bulls per target) is that the sight picture will get confusing with too many targets if they are close together.
This is especially so if you use a sub-6 hold, as the front sight is a distance below the bull, and that white space becomes important.
And in my case, I have to cut the target up, as I do not have the vertical height to shoot a target (paper) much taller than about 8".
For home printed targets, put a piece of cardboard behind the target. The cardboard will function like a cutting board, letting the pellet punch a cleaner hole in the paper.
2nd idea is to print on heavier paper. I have found that 60 pound paper will cut decent holes. Some people have used up to 110 pound paper.
WARNING, before you use heavy paper, check the specs for your printer to see the max weight paper that it will work with, and how to set up the printer for the heavier paper.
As for number of shots per target, I feel that depends on how good you are. If you find that you can't score all your shots, because of overlapping shots, then you need to shoot less shots per target.
If you shoot a shotgun pattern, then you can shoot all 10 shots on one target. If you shoot TIGHT groups, then 5 or even less shots per target.
If you can't score because the target is ripping.
- First make sure you are shooting wadcutter pellets.
- Then look at the paper the target is printed. Either put a backer behind the target or change target paper to a heavier paper.
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gamo2hammerli - 3/25/2009 9:08 PM
CaptGeorge, those 1377 pistol's triggers are heavy eh? I've a hard time getting good accuracy due to that.....I tend to shoot left.... Too bad CharlieDaTuna don't make the sears for them anymore.....I would change it in a heartbeat......
Actually, Stan, my 1377 trigger is not too bad. I've used worse. Maybe a lighter return spring would help, and a little polishing. Anyway, I don't expect it to have a match quality triggerl. I just wanted something better than my Daisy 15XT. LOL
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ac12basis - 3/26/2009 12:38 AM
The problem with "aim small...hit small" is, you can't hit what you can't see.
Using open sight, my middle age eyes can't see the small bulls that you younger guys can see, or are you guys using a scope on your pistol?
Middle-aged eyes!!! Just wait to you have SENIOR-aged eyes like mine! I shoot open sights on pistols. The only sighting device I use are my BI-FOCALS. LOL
Any target is OK with me as long as it has decent sized black center and enough contrast (white space) for a decent 6 o'clock hold.
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My thoughts inserted below (after some trimming). Even after writting all that's below, I am liking the idea of a more formal target to mimick sanctioned competition but instead of adjusting target size maybe we can come up with a way to adjust scores for distance... ie... a '7' from 10m would end up being worth more than a 7 from 5m but I would only do the calcs on the final score. As you shot a 7 is stil a 7....
I absolutely understand the sight picture issue so I'll skip that below.
I'm with TCups on the standard 10m ISSF/NRA AP target at 10 meters....if I shot the Gamo target, I would make my own targets, with the black bull matching the regulation ISSF/NRA AP target - I have a version of the 'Gamo5' with black centers if that's what you mean. Otherwise we may as well buy the targets in bulk as suggested. The prices are better than just ink for me.
For those that do not have a clear 10 meters... 10 vs 5m, the 6m minimum, reducing the targets accordingly while making adjustment to ring size.... Sounds too complex for an informal postal match with 7 or 8 particiapants. I would/will do it. I'm happy to shoot 10m regardless of my scores butwould enough folks join in to be worthwhile????
The problem with "aim small...hit small" is, you can't hit what you can't see. Ever take a good look at a 10m air rifle target? Center is nothing but a tinydot. Something to reference the center of the target, and now an appropriate overall sight picture, is really all i'm going for.
are you guys using a scope on your pistol? mine is scoped, which is probably why I have not worried about sight picture till now.
confusing with too many targets if they are close together. part of the challenge for me, learning to avoid the distraction and all...
I do not have the vertical height to shoot a target (paper) much taller than about 8". tip - grab a 9x11 cookie sheet and 4-5 pugs of duct seal to spread in the bottom (3/4 inch thick) It'll never dry out, silences the 'trap', you can prop it anywhere, just pick the pellets out with a tweezer when your done and smooth it back over, and... the paper sticks right to it so you need no clip or backer.... (note - this configuaration works forpistols,rifles with more power will require thinker duct seal and a studier backing. I shoot my TSS into a HD9x13 cake pan with an extra layer of steelin the bottom and ~ 2 inches of duct seal. Pelletssettleagainst the steel backer)
or.... am I just feeling old and grumpy today...?
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So, are we still using the squares this week since some have already turned in scores? Hope so as I was planning on shooting this tonight! :)
I thought this match was supposed to be a fun informal shoot. Sounds like it's getting complicated. I can live with the squares.
I like the 5m distance as I can shoot it indoors whenever I have time and don't have to wait on the weather to cooperate. 6m is about max for me indoors though if we have to go long. There are other matches for 10m pistols. I glad we have this one at 5m.
Maybe we could try something like this target if the squares are too offensive? -
http://www.glockfaq.com/targets/bullseye/bullseye_halfinch_20.pdf
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I have seen places where people have 5m versions of the standard 10m AP and AR targets. I think they are simply the 10m targets reduced by 50%.
However, for the average person shooting at home (inside), it will be a LOT easier to find a clear 5 meters to shoot in than 10 meters, so I see the value in keeping the range at 5 meters.
On the 10m AR target, you don't aim at the 10 ring (you can't see it anyway), you aim at the black bull. When you aim, you center the black bull in the center of the front aperture which is centered in the rear iris. Works quite well. The issue again becomes the size of the bull. If significantly larger or smaller than the regulation target, then the size of the front aperture has to be changed to be correct for the new bull size.
My trap issue is mine. My 10x10 silent trap is squeezed into the low end of the crawlspace of my home. I don't have any more vertical space to make it bigger.
airgunandy is correct, I can shoot my match AP in the match AP section. Soon as I finish my exam :-(
CG, I wear TRI-focals. I had to get a special pair of glasses made for me to shoot AP. w the tri-focals, I could not focus on the front sight.
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Couple of pistol scores:
At 5 meters, standing, off-hand, 2 hand grip, Beeman P3 w 1X red dot / RWS Hobby: 135
At 10 meters, standing, off-hand, 2 hand grip, IZH-46M / Vogel Greens: 86
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Jeff:
Thanks for your good efforts with the new target -- but as much as the apparent size of the bull, I prefer the type of paper the official targets are printed on. Much cleaner scoring. I will probably continue to shoot the Beeman P3 at 5-meter targets, whatever we decide on, but I will continue to post a 10-meter / 10 shot score with the Edelmann targets on a weekly basis, too.
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ac12basis - 3/26/2009 11:54 AM
....CG, I wear TRI-focals. I had to get a special pair of glasses made for me to shoot AP. w the tri-focals, I could not focus on the front sight.
There's a front sight? LOL
I envy your special glasses. I wear the no-line multi-focals. And, it's really hard to get good sight picture with open sights - especially on a pistol.
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Starting to get the hang of this pistol shootin' stuff. Was reading some stuff on the Pyramid Air blog about pistol shooting. Realized the rear sight notch wasn't wide enough to see light on both sides of the front sight. A bit of time with a needle file fixed it right up.
Anyway...
Score: 102
Distance: 5 Meters - 2 handed
Pistol: Custom Crosman 2240 with 10" .177 barrel - Open sights
Ammo: Daisy Precision Max .177 wadcutters
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Week 2 results.
Total score 137
Weapon= IZH 46M
Grip= 2 handed
Pellets= CPHP
Sights= Factory Partridge
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Hey Dave -- let's see what you can do with the Izzy at 10 meters. We seem to be pretty evenly matched.
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Tommy,
I noticed that you are shooting pretty nice scores too. I think that mine would improve a lot if I had younger eyes. Sights are pretty fuzzy, and I have a red dot ordered.
I managed a 150 while practicing, and I think that my average is in the high 120's with this target at 5meters. I don't have 10 meters hereinside of myhouse, but when the weather gets a little nicer, I may be able to figure out a way to set something up outside. (maybe tomorrow)
I will need to kind of hide from the neighbors so that they don't get upset. I have a spot planned for 10 meters, but Ineed to put up something so that I am not easily seen. I might go to the local range too, but I don't really like to pay to shoot...that is why I bought a couple of airguns.
When I retire, I want to move to a place where I can walk out back, and start shooting....(http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif)without offending anyone.
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First practice sheet was a disaster...a measly 45. Took a 5 minute break and shot the match.....ended up with a 72....4 points higher than last week. Messed up my 19th shot due to the trigger not tripping and continued applying pressure while the hand was trembling terribly.....should have "let-down".
Gun: Crosman 1377 multi-pumper, Scope: Iron Sights, Pellet: .177 Crosman WadCutter, Distance: 5 Meters indoors,
Position: Isosceles stance, 2-Hand grip, SCORE: 72
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A couple more suggestions to consider for the 10 bull target. It would be helpful to have some margin on the page to allow for mouning the taget. That will probably require eliminating the lower scoring rings. But, at 5 meters that should be okay.
Also, you might consider using a gray or cross hatch for the bullseye to save everyone some ink. It needs to be definite so all eyes can see it but again at 5 meters it does not need to be black.
Another reason to lighten the bullseye is that not all the open sight shooters have their sights set for 10 meter competion. Their aim point is the center of the bullseye. If the bullseye is large and black, there is not enough contrast to see the front sight.
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CG
That's why I had to get a special set of glasses made to shoot AP.
My "special" glasses is simply a special prescription in a regular frame, not one of those special shooting glasses frames.
Right (aiming eye) lens prescription is so I can FOCUS on the front sight while still being able to see the target. The eye doc and I did some testing in her office (with my AP) to figure the correct prescription.
Left lens is normal distance prescription, so I can walk about w/o falling over.
I tried to have them put a reading prescription as a bifocal on both lenses so I can see stuff on the bench, like my notes. But the lens was too big for them to put a bifocal on the bottom. Next time I have to use a frame with a smaller lens.
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TC
I think you and I will have to go to the Match Pistol section and shoot there.
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Gary:
OK, I posted a 10 meter / 10 shot score on the target pistol forum. I also shot 1-handed -- much harder, especially shooting RH with dominant left eye.
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Score: 119
Pistol: Beeman P17
Pellet: Crosman HP
Sights: Red dot
Grip: 2-hand
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Well, this is the first time I have tried one of these, and it was most illuminating. You really need to hold yourself to a higher level of concentration and while I can makesome greatindividual shots, sustaining them over the 20 really highlights your weaknesses.
I shot 5m with the P3 using Meisterkugelns, two-hand no rest, iron sights, and sucked worse than I thought I would at that range. A little caffeine, a little break in concentration, and you have bungled the 20 round score altogether. Doh!
Thanks for the challenge and the education, I'll be back for more.