GTA
Target Shooting Discussion Forums General => Target Shooting General Discussion => : JQR March 30, 2009, 08:28:01 AM
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My thanks to those that shared comments and suggestions about the targets. Rather than keep the messy thread going I thought I try this.
Assumptions:
1 - That we keep the 5m Open Pistol Match alive
2 - That we want as many participants as are willing to particiapte.
That's it.
Seems that the target is the biggest question.
If you are participating, thinking about joining in or if you've decided not to join in for some reason related to the target please vote.
I've left the poll open for others to add options too.
If you would have voted 'other' please add your option to the poll and show us an example.
I've also left the poll open for folks to vote on multiple options (hopefully that means you that while you can vote more than once, you can't vote for the same thing a hundred times)
Lets get the target settled for this match.
ar5 -4 target and glock 20 bull are exampled below. Both low quality.
(http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/JQR25/targets/glock20.jpg) (http://s147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/JQR25/targets/?action=view¤t=glock20.jpg)
(http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/JQR25/targets/5mtarget-Model.jpg) (http://s147.photobucket.com/albums/r314/JQR25/targets/?action=view¤t=5mtarget-Model.jpg)
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Twenty small targets are way to many and way too small for a pistol match.
Even at 5 meters, not many pistol shooters will be stacking pellets in a target, so it makes more sense to shoot multiple shots at a larger target to me.
I would much prefer the second, 5-bull target pistol target, 4 shots at each bull for 20 shots. That target appears to be properly scaled for pistol shooting at 5 meters
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I get Photobucket errors when I try to open the files. Is there some other way to get to the 5 bull one?
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NT
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airgunandy - 3/30/2009 7:46 PM
I get Photobucket errors when I try to open the files. Is there some other way to get to the 5 bull one?
Odd, it appears on my page on multiple computers but I also get errors when I click on it.
Here's a link.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=172394
I found specs on this somewhere. Personally I'd rather build/print my own, seems like every time I buy a target in a quantity that makes the price/per worth while... I get tired of shooting at it. But I thought this was a good example of something that would work for this match and I'm happy to buid it or something very close.
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Did you read the review? About the paper that tears and doesn't cut clean holes? You will do much better with the Edelmann 5-bull targets. And they fit Pogo Timmy's pellet traps.
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That link worked, but it was too small to print out and shoot. There is a five bull target on that Glock site. Would something like that work? Or let's just use the same Gamo5 we use on the other matches?
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The Gamo 5 has a white bull with a surrounding black ring. If you shoot open sights with the bull just touching the top blade, the most common sight picture, then, the background for the front blade and rear notch is black on black and it is very difficult to sight accurately. Pistol targets, for competition, need to be a black bull with a white background, please. Same, BTW, for diopter sights.
On the Glock site in the library, there is a 4-bull target that is a just a little smaller than the 5-bull Gamo target. It has small concentric rings. It is a better choice IMO. I suggest 5 shots per pull for a 20-shot match at 5 meters.
http://www.glockfaq.com/targets/bullseye/bullseye_halfinch_4.pdf
Just tested this, and in fact, it is a very good target for 5 meters, giving a sight picture at 5 meters almost exactly like the sight picture of a standard 10 meter pistol bull at 10 meters. Shooting the IZH-46M at 5 meters, the POI is almost the same as at 10 meters as well.
tec
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IT WAS AN EXAMPLE so no I didn't read the reviews. I wouldn't ask anyone to buy target for anything short of a controlled comp
This is 5 min work, I could prob come closer. 5 didn't space well in the software so I ddn't bother, 'd have to pull the image and edit it if we want 5
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Using a target already available in the target section of the library makes it pretty simple, too. No reason why you couldn't shoot 10 shots at 4 targets if we wanted to keep it at 10 shots, else up it to 5 shots per target and make it a 20 shot match. These print at pretty high resolution on my printer.
I will shoot whatever target is picked, and I certainly appreciate your efforts. The main thing I would prefer, though, is the convention of a black bull on a white background. Thanks.
tec
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TCups - 3/30/2009 10:43 PM
Using a target already available in the target section of the library makes it pretty simple, too. No reason why you couldn't shoot 10 shots at 4 targets if we wanted to keep it at 10 shots, else up it to 5 shots per target and make it a 20 shot match. These print at pretty high resolution on my printer.
I will shoot whatever target is picked, and I certainly appreciate your efforts. The main thing I would prefer, though, is the convention of a black bull on a white background. Thanks.
tec
We cross posted - I started my reply before I finished that target. I like the one you put up. That had had never caught my attention on glockfaq before. Good find and thanks for adding it to the options (I voted for it)
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For the guys shooting open sights, at 5m you want the black to be approximately 30mm diameter. This is roughly 50% of the diameter of the 10m NRA/ISSF target.
What JQR has is about right, although the rings could be a little bit bigger. FYI, here are the ring diameters for the NRA/ISSF 10m AP target and a 50% reduction for 5m
10 ring, @10m = 11.5mm, @5m = 6mm
9 ring, 27.5mm, 14mm
8 ring, 43.5mm, 22mm
7 ring, 59.5mm, 30mm, outer-most black ring
6 ring, 75.5mm, 38mm, inner-most white ring
5 ring, 91.5mm, 46mm
4 ring, 107.5mm, 54mm
3 ring, 123.5mm, 62mm
2 ring, 139.5mm, 70mm
1 ring, 155.5mm, 78mm
When I made my 2 and 6 bull 10m AP target, because of the overlapping targets, I dropped the outer rings keeping on one target only rings 10-5 and on another rings 10-6. And for the 6 bull target, I cut the 6 targets apart and shot them individually, to reduce distraction and to be similar to the regulation 10m AP target which is 1 target per target sheet.
The bull on the AR5 target is close to 50% of the 10m AP target, but the rings are so much smaller. I don't think you guys will like that target, because your scores will be much lower, because of the smaller rings.
JQR
I know what you mean, I have a several hundred 10m AP targets. Got them when I was more active shooting 10m AP. Should keep me going for a few years :-)
How do you like the Pellant target program? The only thing it won't do is print an X-ring for some of the NRA targets.
TC
I have a Umarex/Walther CP-99, my fun AP. I painted the back of the front sight orange for exactly for the reason you said, the front sight almost disappears against anything dark. Going to do that to my PPK also, but w the PPK shooting BBs I have to be careful where I shoot, to minimize ricochets. :-(
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1. I have not shot these long enough to have valid input. Therefore,here is my input. (http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif)
2. I like the squares OK. I like only a few shots per position, 2 or 3 per bullwas OK.
3. I have a fondness for this target: http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf/files/rifle_target.pdf (http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf/files/rifle_target.pdf)because it has a gray center with a black crosshair. But the scoring rings are too large for pistol, and as you can see there are only 4 bulls, causing 5 shots per target, in conflict with my previous statement. It's still cool, maybe a shrink down is in order.
4. A practical reason for different target patterns now and then: plinking the same patterns causes wear and lead build-up in the same spots in the old duct seal. I vary between 4, 5, 6, and up target patterns. The pistols don't cause much pitting but the lead build up can be intense. So, to prevent bounce back, especially with wadcutters,I like to mix patterns.
5. I like very clear statements of rules, including distances, heights, and timing between shots. I don't care if anyone else follows them, just like to know standards.
6. I thought about giving up alcohol, caffeine, tobacco, and *_*_*_*_*_* to conquer 10m pistol and go to the Olympics. But, 5m is more fun for now and I have to make new grips for the Izzie. Want to shoot more 10m but it's really cool to have both options. Thanks for putting these up there.
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Dave
Try making your own with the Pellant target program. But it won't make the crosshair.
I used it to make special training targets with only 2 rings; 1 black (same size as the black bull) and 1 white (same size as the 1-ring). I use this target to train to keep all my shots in the black. Where in the black did not matter, the goal was to have NO shots in the white, you could count the white ring as 0 points, and if you were really nasty outside the white ring could count as -1. I made both AP and AR versions.
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Regarding open pistol sights
Yes, practically speaking, you can shoot 5-meter pistol at 10-meter air rifle targets pretty easily. The 10-meter bulls are 30 mm. The 5-meter bulls are 60 mm, I think.
The more I shoot, I hate to say it (gasp!), but the more I prefer pistol matches to air rifle matches. After I shoot my Walther LGR-U air rifle standing off-hand for 50 or so shots, I am pretty much worn out and sweaty, as much from the mental exertion as the physical, I think. But I feel like I could pop away the the IZH-46M pistol all day long. What does it say about one's personality when shooting pistols is more relaxing than shooting rifles?
I think I will start posting 5-M and 10-M pistol scores in the match pistol forum on the Edelmann targets, irrespective of what we decide for the open pistol matches. And I think I will start shooting at least 25 round matches to get a more consistent average of how I am actually scoring.
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WOW! This is getting complicated.
I'm not an expert here, but I suggest we keep it simple. Shooting at 10 meter pistol bulls reduced to 5 meters (10 -7) just means I'm going to shoot a lot of eggs (zeros). How about shooting 5 shots at two full size reduced targets? See attached.
The attached image was created with TargetGen V1.0.5. However, I reduced it to 25% for posting. I can upload a full size target or shooters can use the program. It's the FREE version.
This way, when I miss the bull, I can at least score SOME points. LOL Maybe, it would also encourage other "not-so-good" pistol shots like me to join in and have fun.
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Why wouldn't you score anything less than a 7-ring? That doesn't seem right, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that. The square target 10-ring is 1 cm, smaller than the 1/2 in 10 ring on the 4-bull Glock target. The black bull on the Glock target (10, 9 rings) is 1 in. The rings on the Glock target score 10,9,8,7,6,5,4 over a 3.5 in diameter target, which would give substantially higher (and somewhat less arbitrary scores) compared to the square targets, which score 0 outside of 50 mm horizontal or vertical or 66 mm on a diagonal through the center of the bull. In other words, shooting on the diagonal scores better than shooting on horizontal or vertical at the same distance from the center of the target. Somewhat arbitrary where precise scoring is concerned, IMO. And the Glock 4-bull target is, roughly, a half scale 10 meter pistol target, ready to shoot.
As for the 10-meter pistol targets, the 10-ring is 1 cm, and the black (10-7 rings) is 60 mm and the overall target is about 6 in, I think. So at 1/2 scale, the black (10-7 rings) would be 30 mm with the 10-ring roughly the size of a .177 pellet, and the overall target, would be 3 in in diameter with rings scoring 10, 9, 8, ... 1.
So actually, either the Glock target or the half-scaled 10-meter pistol target would be easier, not harder, to score on than the square targets. The concentric rings on both are more accurate for scoring with respect to distance from the center of the bull. And the center black bull is much more appropriate for target shooting with open sights on a pistol.
The intent isn't to make things more complicated. It is to make it easier to aim, shoot and score a match. But heck, I'm easy -- I'll shoot anything.
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Tommy,
You and I agree, I think. I just don't want to shoot at15-20 little bulls like the steroid rifle match with my open sight, stock 1377 pistol.
I also don't like the square targets because I find it difficult to get a good sight picture - not enough contrast for these "old" eyes. And, you're right about the scoring being somewhat arbitrary.
As far as which target, the purists here may disagree, but anything with a decent sized black bull works for me. The Glock target bulls are a little smaller than a 10M pistol target reduced for 5M. The scoring would be higher since the Glock 10-9 covers most of the 10-7 on the reduced target. However, the Glock would be easier to score on ragged holes or rips on "computer paper. Overall, the Glock target may be the best choice.
I was just trying to offer an alternative that would keep our "expert 10M pistolers" happy, and yet allow a beginner score SOME points. After all, the more participation the better.
George
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The four bull Glock target looks OK to me if that's the one we use. I've been printing targets on 110# cardstock (found at WalMart and other stores next to regular copy paper) and it doesn't tear out as bad as regular 20# paper.
Which target are we using this week, whichever one we decide on here or still the squares?
If we are going to be using whatever we decide on here we better pick something fast or there won't be time to shoot! :)
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Couple of thoughts based on some of some of the comments above.
Complicated - unfortunately yes. I'm sorry if I've added to that I was just trying to settle some things that keep coming up.
Target - no clear leader with 3 tied at 3 votes but the squares are def losing. Can we say that a half scale 10m target is the way to go? I like the glock 4 target and i like that it's publicly available but I also like scores on my rings (i know, that's silly but I do). I know I had a copy of one somewhere but i can't find it at the moment.
Pellant Software - I do like it. Easy to play around with but as was pointed out it def has limitations, but hey it's better at drawing the rings than me, especially since I usually scan something than play around in 'Paint'.
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Change my vote to Glock.
The Glock target is exactly the same as GAMO5 except it has a black bull instead of white. Other targets include black bull except for squares. So it seems larger rings with black bulls are preferred. So unless anyone objects, I suggest we shoot the Glock this week.
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A personal comment about targets.
When I shoot at 10 meters, I shoot at the 10m AP target, and if I score poorly that's my problem.
But if after shooting it you feel frustrated...use a bigger target. (just keep on reading)
And for AR...
With my match rifles, I shoot the regulation 10m AR target cuz that is what I WANT to shoot, not that I can shoot it well.
BUT...I feel that the regulation 10m AR target is NOT a target that a new shooter should start out on. It is an OLYMPIC level target. I think it is for this very reason that the NRA has a larger target, I think it is the TQ-5 25 ft training target. In fact for new shooters, or plinking rifles, I pull out the much bigger 10m AP target instead.
My idea here is to be able to shoot a "satisfactory" score, such that you will keep on shooting, rather than quit out of disgust. And that is exactly how I felt when I first started shooting 10m AR, my scores were SO BAD that I was ready to quit. Then when you get better, you can move on to the smaller targets.
Here is what was done on the StraightShooters Challenge matches.
They used 2 DIFFERENT targets, a larger "novice" target and a smaller "marksman" target.
It would be up to the shooter to determine which category and thus target he shoots at, based on his skills and the gun he is shooting.
Example, my scores take a nasty tumble when I shoot my Webby Hurricane, compared to my Walter match pistol. So I would shoot the marksman target with my Walther, and the novice target with my Hurricane.
If you start getting very high novice scores, then it is time to step up to the marksman target.
This concept is somewhat like golf. The pros hit from the back pro tee. The men hit from the middle mens tee. The women and duffers like me hit from the front womens/dufers tee.
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ac12basis
I like the idea of tiers but not sure I want to tackle that right now. If we use one target we can figure out how to factor in some % reduction to the scoring in time or start a different match or diff target.
All,
Since they are almost identical in size I'm willing to call our new target EITHER the gamo5 / regular gamo / or the glock 4. Take your choice.
I almost hate to ask but... are we still doing 20 shots.... (someone decide please :-) )
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Gamo5, Gamo, or Glock4.
Four bulls, five shots each for a total of 20 shots? Easy math. If we do 10 shots over four bulls, how does that work?
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Two to three shots per bull is good....any more and it becomes hard to score for the good shooters.
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gamo2hammerli - 3/30/2009 10:17 PM
Two to three shots per bull is good....any more and it becomes hard to score for the good shooters.
Sounds good, Stan. I tried shooting the Glock today on computer paper stapled to cardboard (this is how I shoot open rifle & steroid). However, my low powered 1377 (3 pumps) left tears and rips with 5 shots per target.
How we shoot four targets: 3 shots on upper two targets and 2 shots on lower two. And, you can shoot either Gamo5 or Glock depending on your preference for black or white bulls.
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[Too late to edit prior post.]
Much as I hate to say it.....I'm almost ready to shoot the "steroid" target - one shot per target. Same size bull as Gamo5/Glock. Easy scoring, and, nice black bull for iron sights.
QUICK!! Somebody make a decision before I go CRAZY! (http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-undecided.gif)
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A suggestion. If you have trouble scoring your target, why not shoot less shots at each bullseye, and just shoot 2 shots at 10 bullseyes instead of 4 shots at 5 bullseyes? Just shoot your first 10 shots, and change the target...after all 5M isn't too far to walk ;-)
I have been shooting the 10M Air Pistol target at about 8M, and I have trouble scoring that target, because I will usually have 2 or more shots in the same hole, but who knows which hole, and how many? If I only shoot 2 shots at each bullseye, I know for sure where the second shot went.
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It's almost half-way through the week.....we have to choose a target sheet.....if we drag this out any longer we might end up losing the interest of the few members shooting this match. I will go with the Gamo5 target sheet with 3 shots per target, a total of 15 shots....easy to score....and they have a good contrast.
What say you 5M Open Pistol shooters?
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Do it.
The Gamo and the glock 4 target are so close.... Anyway. NO SQUARES, 15 Shots, 1 target or 15 - as many as you feel you need to score properly, Gamo, Gamo5 or the glock thing.... Use you fav. I'm going to shoot the gamo5. I have a bunch printed and I don't need more different versions of targets to worry about.
Deadeye - I recognize that screenname from another forum and online match format. I'm Bean over there. Actually, I'm Bean almost everywhere and I think I was Bean here the first time I signed up but I couldn't get back into that ID. Come shoot with us.
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I just got a crosman 1377. I can hit a denty more stew can at 10 yards 3 of 5 times. But I will give it a go. I am having a hard time geting it sighted.
Some of the photo hostimg sights don't open for me. Other than that I am game.
Do you have a prize for most room for improvement. LOL
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Hey Deadeye, Glad you decided to join us. As for the prize for "most improved"...well, you get to keep you best target to show your buddies, and you got bragging rights at the bowling alley (or wherever else you hang out).
Shoot straight!
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OK. Let me get this straight.
It's the Gamo target, the Gamo5 target, or the Glock 4 bull target with a total of 15 shots?
That's 15 shots with a top score of 150?
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Gamo5 it is.....3 shots per bull for a total of 150 pts....and/or the other 2 you mentioned. I've got about 200 sheets of them printed since the beginning of these matches.....
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Stan,
Download the attached target, print it and see if it's the right size on your printer. The black bull (9 ring) should measure 1.0 inches - exactly same as Gamox5 target white bull. This should make it a lot easier to shoot 5M pistol - especially shooting iron sights next week.
I also suggest we put whatever targets we plan to use in the library so new members can find them easily. I have a hi-res version for the library if you think it's needed.
As soon as we're all shooting 10's, I'll make up another one using regular 10M Pistol target reduced for 5M.
George