GTA
Gateway To Product Reviews => Non-Productive Posts => : airgunandy May 07, 2009, 12:22:47 AM
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I don't want to start a flame war or anything, but I don't get it. Seems like almost everyday I read about someone complaining about some issue with their new RWS rifle. Was thinking about saving up for a model 34 to see what all the hooplah is about, but now I don't know.
Plastic triggers
No lube in the gun
Droopy barrels
Off center barrel bore
Breaking scopes
Slipping scopes
Requirement of special mounting devices for scopes
If a Crosman Quest has droop it's a POS, but the droop on an RWS is a design feature?
Seems like it would be just as much the luck of the draw getting a good one as going to WalmMart and picking up a Beeman dual barrel outfit or Crosman Storm for half the price. Sure it's Chinese and it will probably need work, but the thought of forking over all that extra money and still getting a lemon doesn't make sense to me. Criminy, when Crosman produces stuff that bad, there is no end of griping on the forums, but build it off-shore in Europe and slap a German name on it (even if some parts come from China) and everyone stands in line to pony up the extra cash. And then ya still gotta work on them.
I read posts on the various forums where some poor soul is asking about a specific Crosman, Benjamin, Gamo, Ruger or something that they wanna plink cans with in their backyard.
Invariably, someone will post something like, "Don't buy American or Chinese crap, buy an RWS and avoid all the problems."
Then I read all the posts about all the issues with RWS products.
Sorry for the rant. Guess I'm just too much of a low-budget infidel to understand.
Having too much fun with my Russian and Chinese springers and my American-made pumpers.
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YES!!!! tjk
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I guess it depends on what's important to you, Andy. Yes, there are issues with Diana (RWS/Umarex is just the importer), but then, there are sometimes issue with even a TX or Beeman. Truly, despite all the hoopla, the plastic trigger is a non-issue, IMO. Yes, they tend to ship fairly dry, but then, they don't diesel out of the box, either, so you don't tend to get burnt piston seals. Yes, the barrel droop can be a pain, but it can be dealt with. It's not at all uncommon, even with Gamo's. The major scope issues are much more an issue with the magnums like the 350 and 48/52/54, the medium powered guns like the 34 aren't as much hassle.
What it all boils down to is, how long do you want to keep your rifles? Trust me, if you've never handled one of the German rifles, you're in for a different experience. I've owned three Diana's, 2 rifles and a pistol, and there's no question these are a giant step up in quality over a Gamo or Chinese gun. These, like the Beemans and a few others, are rifles that will last for years, provided you take care of them, and will probably just get better with age.
So to answer your question, yes, I think they really are that good. And if the plastic trigger really bugs you, just wait until mid-year. The new T06 trigger should be out then, it has a metal trigger blade, and fixes some other trigger issues about the T05 that have always bugged me. And best yet, it will be a drop in replacement if you happen to have a T05 rifle! Later.
Dave
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u could have problem with any rifle but as mmy 48 .22 its the best rifle i have its accurate ,powerful and the problem to the scope is that the rifle is magnum rated so u need a good scope and a droop compensator which will hold your scope on tight and the trigger is plastic but pretty bgood it moves but its better then some metal ones and im sure many will agree and excellent out the box not like the gamo that u need a trigger change and a tune and has a twang thats louder than the release of the pellet it self .these rws made in germany r excellent shooters just be careful with refurbish ones thats all .yes they all that good.daved i second your post but i find the trigger to be great .
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IMO. The plastic trigger to me is a non-issue. IMO it gets to much play on the internet. Dry guns (they might seem dry to most, but maybe that's all they need) IMO are better than some guns (especially Chinese) that are dripping with lube. They diesel forever and often need a tear down so they can be cleaned up. Yes droop is built in to alot of European guns (not just Diana's) because they shoot alot indoors at 10M with iron sights. So to someone over there, there is no droop issue, only where people use scopes. The off center barrel, well, if it still shoots accurately, so what. Breaking scopes and slipping scopes.
Any magnum (and some non-magnum) springers can break a scope or slide it on the rails. It's more to do with the recoil characteristics than the manufacturer. English made Webley Tomahawks had a reputation of busting scopes. My Beeman R-10 broke a BSA scope in 3 shots. They require only adjustable scope mounts for droop as does any rifle with droop. Tom Gaylord helped design the Leapers mount, but it's certainly not a requirement. Yes the Chinese are getting better and improving their quality. But IMO and experience, it is more of a crap shoot buying a Chinese gun than an RWS as far as quality goes.
IMO RWS rifles are a good value for the dollar. Yes there are better guns( as far as blueing, stocks and trigger), but they cost more. Diana's are not the only gun needing a tune out of the box. How many people have you seen post on the forums that they just plunked down $450 or more on a HW/Beeman and sent it off for a tune?
I don't know if you read the Dianawerk Collective forum, but there was a good article from a gentlemen named Hector Medina who visited the Diana factory. Here is a link if you care to read it.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/184474/thread/1240601924/last-1241117971/A+short+visit+to+Mayer+%26amp%3B+Grammelspacher
Just my opinions and experience. Yours and others mileage may vary.
Best Regards
Nathan
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Vert well written, Nathan. Nice link too. I sometimes wish I'd have purchased a R9 Goldfinger instead of my Diana, but the Diana suits my needs fine. Out of the box, she shoots better then I am capable and also cost me quite a bit less then the R9. As far as fit and finish, I still pull her out of my gunsafe just to sit and look at.....she's pretty.
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I think they are worth it
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HNT5 - 5/7/2009 11:53 AM IMO. The plastic trigger to me is a non-issue. IMO it gets to much play on the internet. Dry guns (they might seem dry to most, but maybe that's all they need) IMO are better than some guns (especially Chinese) that are dripping with lube. They diesel forever and often need a tear down so they can be cleaned up. Yes droop is built in to alot of European guns (not just Diana's) because they shoot alot indoors at 10M with iron sights. So to someone over there, there is no droop issue, only where people use scopes. The off center barrel, well, if it still shoots accurately, so what. Breaking scopes and slipping scopes. Any magnum (and some non-magnum) springers can break a scope or slide it on the rails. It's more to do with the recoil characteristics than the manufacturer. English made Webley Tomahawks had a reputation of busting scopes. My Beeman R-10 broke a BSA scope in 3 shots. They require only adjustable scope mounts for droop as does any rifle with droop. Tom Gaylord helped design the Leapers mount, but it's certainly not a requirement. Yes the Chinese are getting better and improving their quality. But IMO and experience, it is more of a crap shoot buying a Chinese gun than an RWS as far as quality goes. IMO RWS rifles are a good value for the dollar. Yes there are better guns( as far as blueing, stocks and trigger), but they cost more. Diana's are not the only gun needing a tune out of the box. How many people have you seen post on the forums that they just plunked down $450 or more on a HW/Beeman and sent it off for a tune? I don't know if you read the Dianawerk Collective forum, but there was a good article from a gentlemen named Hector Medina who visited the Diana factory. Here is a link if you care to read it. http://www.network54.com/Forum/184474/thread/1240601924/last-1241117971/A+short+visit+to+Mayer+%26amp%3B+Grammelspacher Just my opinions and experience. Yours and others mileage may vary. Best Regards Nathan
You just saved me ALOT OF ONE FINGER TYPING!!!!(http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-cool.gif) I Must admit,,, I am partial to Diana guns,,, I am in no way "Dissing" others. Tim.:)
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Timmy has a nice plinker, so does Brandon, and I really like them myself {got more than a dozen} . . .http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=4091 (http://thread-view.asp?tid=4091)
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RWS5g/P5 Magnum
RWS34 Panther .22
RWS48 .20
Diana 24 .22 ( think this counts as RWS?)
I think they are pretty good, to be honest with ya. No problem at all with plastic triggers, never noticed until I read I should feel bad about them. The '48 is the only with perceptible droop and it is one of the best shooting guns I own.
I wouldn't really count RWS94 and 92 since they are Cometas. The 92 is pretty cool. The 94 is another of the best shooting guns I own.
I think any gun is potentially worth tuning and don't hold that against any particular brand. Paul Watts tunes R7s, one of the sweetest air rifles made, and people line up for it. If good is good, better is better. Dianas are great rifles and you feel it the instant you pick one up.
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RWS is an importer. I am not sure if RWS makes a single rifle. The 34 Panther and the 48 are Diana's, as is the P5 Magnum. The Diana air rifles and pistols are German made air guns and are generally of good quality. Diana's do get knocked for the plastic trigger and barrel droop, but while both are characteristics of the Diana's, they are not (at least in my mind and many others as well) signs of a poorly made air rifle. But as with so many other manufactured goods, price pressure from lower quality competition, primarily Chinese, has taken a toll on some of the very high end air rifles. English BSA's have been "outsourced" and perhaps even German Beeman's and Diana's will also one day go the way of the Belgium Browning. Not to say that the newer, less expensive models made in Turkey or Spain or China or wherever labor is cheap aren't necessarily decent air rifles, but being an old guy, I sometimes feel that we are near the end of the "Golden Age" of air gunning. If you have a well-made German or English air rifle, hang on to it. Their value can only go up with time.
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Hate to talk pyros here, but while I cherish a Belgian Browning or two, my BPS 12 ga. was made in Japan. It has been my go-to game getter for about 25 years and is an extension of my will. Fit and finish were as beautiful as a production pump gun gets. It sure shows its age now, which is entirely my fault, but the Japanese knew how to tool up a gun.
I would hate to see Diana go the outsource route, but I think they already are. Bummer. Based on what I've been seeing, the Chinese are getting a lot better at this stuff than the Turks.
Still never had a British AG....
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Belgium has been known for finely crafted guns (airguns, too) for a couple hundred years. The Belgian Brownings, be they High Powers, ATD's or shotguns, all display meticulous craftsmanship. You are talking about makers with generations of employees, journeymen and apprentices. Browning outsourced the labor on High Powers to Portugal. While they are nice guns, I would much rather have an all-Belgian High Power, simply because they were so well finished. The thing is, when you outsource, say like Webley did to Turkey, you lose a valuable asset and that is workforce experience. You can have the same tooling and blueprints, but the end results will suffer. Look at the early Turkish guns - Webley in name only. Diana is a small shop with less than 100 craftsmen, some of whom are apprenticed. Compare that to BAM which operates out of an idled SKS/AK47 factory with comparatively free labor, little to no overheads or R&D department. (Hence the price differential.)
Go to the Dianawerke Collective and check out the threads on a recent tour of M&G (Diana) to see what they are doing these days. You might be surprised.
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I think the older guns are a far better value than the current production. The 52 & 54 are way over priced and huge, heavy and bulky. I'd buy a TX or a 97 before I'd buy either one of those. Now as for the the old 34 I have manufactured in 95 she is a fine shooter. I still dislike the stock but she is awsome. She is in my stay pile. If your really concerned about it call Umarex and see what they have refurbed. The 34 is an easy tear down slap some lube in her ans she should shoot for for a long time.
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Thanks for the input guys. I understand the looks of the polished metal and wood and all that, but will it make me a better shot? :)
Guess I'm just trying to justify spending $200 - $300 or so for a real purdy "BB" gun to plink with in the backyard. Kinda like why buy a Mercedes when my Plymouth will get me to work and back just as well?
Think I'll just keep an eye out for a good used one.
Thanks!
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What are comonly refered to as "RWS" guns,,, are accually made by "Diana". RWS is the export company. Last I heard,, Umarex is the only US Import Co. Last I heard from a Buddy of mine that is currently at the acuall Diana factory in Germany,,seems RWS is playing a more active role now?? Diana makes some mighty fine BB Guns!! :D 8) Promise,,, Just ask Gene,, "Mr Bob",,Ernie,, or me about my J Woodcock Diana 34!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D Timbo.
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I love my "RWS" guns :)
JEff
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I have found good used Diana, RWS air rifles at gunshows, and at gun shops. The German made air rifle is a real fine piece of craftmanship. I own six Diana air rifles, and one Diana air pistol. They shoot very well, they are powerful, and very accurate. They are well made...and will maybe last a life time. I have a couple of 20 year old Diana guns...and they have shot well for all these years...and never needed a "tune". My Beeman R-1 is also 20 years old...but it is German made too!
1 RWS 48 177...gunshop used for $225
2. RWS 46 177...gunshow used for $200
3. RWS 460 22...used gunshow for $400 unfired! (from an air gun dealer)
4. RWS 54 177...new Sportsman's Warehouse for $449, with scope and RWS mount
5. RWS 350 177...new Sportsman's Warehouse for $269
6. RWS 48/52 177...used gunshow for $280
7. RWS Model 5-G 177 air pistol gunshow used for $150 (from a air gun dealer)
All of my used RWS guns were like new...and shoot very well. I used chamber lube, and oiled them...that was all they needed.
UMAREX USA will service your RWS guns, and re-work them, and even tune them (often for free, or $80 for a re-work on an old gun). ...talk to Glen, they also sell re-worked guns, and blemished guns at real low prices! UMAREX USA 479-646-4210...ask for Glen!
Douglas George
Douglas George
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Andy, Diana guns are not the Cadillac of German springers alhtough some of the more expensive models like the 54 come a little close. I think the question you should be asking is it worth buying the less expensive German Dianas over the more expensive German and English Springers such HW, FWB & Air Arms, BSA, etc. (that can reach close to $1K)? The answer would still be yes. You will not find a (new) gun from those other European manufacturers for $200. Their entry level guns cost at least 50% more.
The Diana 34 is Diana's bread & butter and a classic because it's affordable, practical and easy to maintain. They have sold more 34's than any other European model from other manufacturers. Of course buying used would save you a few bucks, and might even encourage you to go for a higher and more powerful model like the 48/52, 350, etc. but the 34 can take care of business whether it's hunting or plinking and having fun. There 's not much small-game out there that the 34 can't take, that the others can, at 35yds with a head shot.
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What did I tell ya in my EM Andy?!?!?!,...... haven't seen a negative thing about the Diana 34 through-out this entire thread!!!! Let me put it this way,....If my house were to burn down,...and I only had time to grab one rifle before the whole thing crumbled, burnt, and melted to hell,.....it would be my Diana 34,....without question. That includes my Air-Rifles as well as my powder-burners,...even my 11 year old Benji 397 that started this whole mess/addiction!!!!!!!! Simply put,... the 34 is THE best rifle you will find at the price!!! Now quit dauddling and get one!!!! Tune it, scope it, and you will be set for life. I've spent $200 on alot less,...and all I've left are distant and hazy memories,...if you get my meaning. Have faith in your fellow GTA family members,...we certainly wouldn't steer you in the wrong direction. Yes, the Diana 34 is worth every cent,..and then some!!! Best Wishes, Thomas
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PS.... Love what Harry said as well. "it can take care of business"!!!!! LMAO True,...oh so true!!!!! tjk
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GAMO or a Crossman...well thats like a Yugo, They will shoot...for a while. But they are too light, and have too much plastic.They are cheap, and made cheap....but they do seem to shoot. RWS...well that's like a Mercedes! Good German made, higher end air rifle. The RWS Diana will last a lifetime. If you want a real low cost air rifle...get a Chinese under lever for around $45. I have one I got at the Tulsa show for $35...it shoots ok for plinking, and birds and bushytails in the back yard. A gunshop in Hutchison Kansas sells the Gamo under lever for $179, CFX I think. I almost got one...but I did not like the big plastic "thing" on the front of the barrel. The front sight was on it, and you could flex it. The scope rail was junk! I looked at the GAMO Whisper, but did not like the plastic barrel, with the steel rifled liner. The lock up of the barrel was plastic, and I think it would loosen with time. Lower power than the RWS Diana Magnum air rifle. And I don't like GAMO's "Alloy Raptor" pellets they push so hard in their ads. The alloy Raptor pellets do make my Chinese air rifle sound like a 22 rim fire!
Douglas George
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The RWS guns have a very good steel scope rail, with matching holes for the mounting pins on the RWS Lockdown scope mount, which is real good and has the droop compensation belt into it. They are made for one inch, and 30 mm scopes.
Douglas George
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Dear Doug:
I am not an air gun "god", just someone who enjoys fine air rifle shooting. I had a Crossman pump up pistol, but the plastic front sight was not square, and the rear sight was tilted too...I sold that Crossman junk, and got an RWS 5 G air pistol that is very well made, and shoots as good as my Smith & Wesson K-38. The air gun dealer here in Kansas won't even carry Crossman, or GAMO...go to Wal-Mart for that. Its like telescopes, you can buy a very good Celestron, or Meade...or go to Wal-Mart and get a Tasco 400X plastic telescope. Crossman and Gamo shoot ok...just too much plastic...lower end guns. A Chinese air rifle will shoot just as good, and cost much less at a gun show. The Chinese guns are made in an ols SKS factory, they are a little rough, but they are all steel, and they shoot. A higher end Chinese gun, tuned and re-worked is Tech Force...and they are good, and low priced!
Douglas George
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Have you ever shot an Diana? If you have, you would understand!!!
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Based on past experience, Douglas isn't trying to impress anybody, just stating facts gleaned from his own experience. And re: your Glock vs. Ruger comment, I'll take the Ruger any day. Or better yet, a 1911A1. Despite hiding your post count, it's obvious you haven't been around the GTA very long. This place is family, and like family, you can disagree, just keep it civil, please. Later.
Dave
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But I can smell a troll when I run into one. And I do mean one, or is it just a coincidence that both dem and JDMcKillips have the same IP address? If your only reason for being here is to be a PITA, take is elsewhere. If you're actually here to contribute something to this forum, fine, but like I said before, keep it civil. And no, calling a moderator a hypocrite isn't being civil. Care to try again?
Dave
Just did a little research, like father, like son. That explains the same IP address.
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We all have our "Favorite" types of guns. I am NOT taking sides here. I will say this though,,,, while I do have my favorite "brand" of guns,,, I think it is WRONG to refer to other brands of guns you may not like with derogatory words. Just remember,,,, the GTA is a place where we can talk about ALL AIRGUNS. Tim. The GTA Rules are plain & simple. "Name Calling"/Personal attacks will not be tollerated,,, nor should they. As only a member here,, I think that rule should extend to not only members of our GREAT Forum,,,but also to ALL airgun manufactures as well. Just my 2 cents. Tim. PS,, The Administrators & Moderators here are GREAT Folks,, I know many of them personally,, I get a little "Rilled Up" when someone "Questions" them.
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I'm with Timmy on this one. To each his own.
OK. Diana's are, for the most part, not the Mercedes of the air gun world. More like the VW, which is pretty well built compared to a lot of other "compact cars". (HW's are more akin to Mercedes.) And I do like Diana's. The 34, while a sturdy rifle that lends itself well to improvements, is still fairly utilitarian. The base gun comes without a buttplate and other amenities which someone entering the adult air gun market may expect for $200 or so. (That's something Diana should address, since even the cheapest competitors' guns have more than a bare behind - strictly pre-70's styling.) Dollar for dollar, they are better built, in both terms of materials/craftsmanship and design than a lot of the Spanish guns. Remember, the Chinese guns are almost devoid of original designs. You are buying a copied German or Spanish gun, for the most part, when you shop Chinese. All guns under $250 seem to need a little tuning, regardless of brand. $250 may sound like a lot of money if you are not familiar with adult air rifles but it really is just enough to get you started on a bit better quality piece.
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Me, I can't get over the plastic on their product. It just seems very cheap to me. I like RWS/Diana in the older models when they would engrave their logo into the receiver and not simple just stamp it on. Go with Beeman products, they just feel better to hold and shoulder.
My 2 cents....BUY BEEMAN, and not the cheap stuff at Walmart.
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Dear Doug: I don't have a Rugar or a Glock. I have had both, and they both shot well. Now I own 25 Smith & Wesson revolvers...they are all very welll made, and shoot well! Tonight I will shoot my Smith 629, and a couple of RWS air rifles.
D. G.
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I agree with "patton123". Beeman makes a very fine air gun. I own a Beeman R-1 in 177, and it is a very fine German made air rifle. Very deep gun blue on the metal, adjustable trigger, very good checkering on the well fitted stock. And it locks up real tight...and shoots very well. I also have a Beeman P-3, a nice "target like" air pistol...with a fantastic trigger! I have seen the P-1 and it is very nice too. Stay away from the Chinese Beeman guns...a couple of friends had problems with their Chinese Beeman guns...in fact one friend was so upset with his Chinese Beeman P-3 copy...that he cut it up, and put the remains in his dumpster! The good Beeman P-3 is German made! But it costs more than $100, the Chinese is around $45.
Like I said before, if you want a good low cost air rifle...get a Chinese made...re worked "Tech Force" gun, or find a Chinesde QB 36-2! The QB 36-2 is a very fine low cost powerful air rifle. I have two in 177. They both cost less than $85, and they are a full size, accurate with two front sight inserts. They do shoot as well as my RWS guns! They are around 900 fps in 177. And they both have nice Mahogany stocks. Their only problem so far is the Mahogany wood is a soft wood, and they can nick and dent if yiou are rough on them.
Douglas George
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Beeman makes nothing but boxes, labels and brochures. Those are HW's. If plastic holds up on an air gun, I don't mind it. They are heavy enough, as is. Diana could get away from their old style stocks, though. For example, the 34 should be dropped and the 36 installed as the basic gun. Let's face it, the 36's stock isn't that much over a plain 34's, but it would make them more competitive with the HW's. Maybe back when farmers were the primary market, the current 34 and it's plain wooden butt was in vogue, but not in today's world of buyers who insist upon a little more. In fact, even in the 20's/30's, the more expensive guns sported steel buttplates. Times have changed.
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I dont have either, so maybe my opinion doesnt matter, but i prefer the looks of an HW over an RWS. But yes i believe from what ive gathered RWS are really great rifles. Unfortunately, they are made too close to the gamo factory, and have exageratted velocities a little, but other than that they are fine rifles in my opinion.
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....it was a good session, but now it's getting out of hand, so with that I will put it to bed.