GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => The Shop => : joe-joe guns January 03, 2010, 11:49:47 AM
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I took some time today to tear down and tune up a New Model 25.Enjoy.
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A lot more complicated than I imagined. No wonder when I was a kid a broke Daisy 25 remained a broke Daisy 25. Or anyother AG for that matter.
Good instructional pictorial. You got my attention. Good Going.
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How does she shoot now? Did it pick up any power?
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I'm finally getting a chrony.It should be here by the end of the week.I was waiting to get it before I put this up but I had some time this weekend so I got dirty.I have a stock 25 still in the box to benchmark,I know every gun is different but between that one and the other numbers I've found on the web I should get a good idea if the washers for pre-load helped out.From what I've found people are getting between 320 and 340 fps depending on the bb's used.I'm going to test Daisy,Crosman and RWS match grade bb's.Stay tuned.
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Great job with the pix.
The gun looks great. Wish my old one looked as good. Santa came through with other stuff I needed so I'll get a new one later.
You may find your chrony has trouble getting a read on the BB's. My F-1 Shooting Chrony won't read shiny copper heads on a sunny day. Even with the sky screens on. I had to dig out some older, darker, tarnished BB's to get them to read.
I put the chrony out to remember to see what the old 25 will do tomorrow.
Paul.
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what is the total thicknss of the brass washers? are you maxed out? i wonder if there is potential for other springs to be installed? did yu notice any diference in the feel of the firing cycle?
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Welcome, Larry! Now you is the newbie. (Just kidding.) I think you'll find this a right nice forum.
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Great pics. Do you have any chrony results?
Dave@vabch
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A really nice mod25 and with the gold bling, I had not seen that before and great tune with pics too:) I thought they stopped making them in the mid 80's. Tony.
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They started again.
I can't even find it on Daisy's website.
Ran a string with my old 25 this morning. Note; this was bought new by my grandfather back in the early 1920's. He used it, then my uncle, then handed down to my two older brothers, then to me when I was about 6-7 years old. I shot hundreds of BB's through it just about every week into my mid teens when I was given a 22LR. I shot it so much that I wore the BB retaining dent out of the bend in the end of the magazine tube thus making it into a single shot.
It hasn't been oiled in probably more than 25 years.
Anyway, here's the chrony results for what they are worth. Copperhead BB's are all I have so that's what I used.
1. 201.3
2. 202.5
3. 202.8
4. 201.5
5. 201.5
6. 198.1
7. 205.7
8. 206.5
9. 209.3
10. 211.8
11. 212.9
12. 217.7
As you can see, the numbers started climbing the last half of the string. Probably as the gun loosened up after sitting for a year since last shot. Going to oil it and shoot another string.
Paul.
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it will probably speed up quite a bit with a little oil in the mechanism. i suspect it may have had a leather seal as well. may be in bad shape. my new one is getting around 320 fps average with a low of 312 and a high of 320. thats new and not broken in yet. some of the older once from long ago hit 375.
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"...........some of the older once from long ago hit 375. ......"
LOL, they don't get much older than this one !!!
I hope it does pick up some speed, but this things been shot so much that the BB's rattle down the barrel. I know I've put somewhere around 80,000 through it in the 50 years I've had it. I wouldn't be surprised that the total from the whole family's use is well over 100,000.
I may have to 'patch' the BB's like they do when shooting a musket !!!
Paul.
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from what i understand the new guns barrel will fit old guns. fixing the rest if it might be a little more complicated. i have no idea where you would go. maybe daisy woulddo it.
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Other than oil, clean, I'll leave this one alone now that new ones are available.
Besides, rebuilding this one would probably cost more than buying a new one and just lower the value of this one. I'd rather get a new one to have as an everyday shooter.
I was approched by a collector several years ago when he learned how old it is. I told him it's shot out and hardly any bluing left on it. He said he'd still would like to see it and make an offer. Told him it was my Grampa's and Lord willing, it will belong to a grandson of mine someday after I get done teaching him how to shoot. And if I get a new one, we'll have two, then it'll be twice the fun !!!!
Paul.
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Have you ever torn down your Red Ryder?
dave
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Magnum,
1987 is suposed to be the last year they made a model 25 if this website is correct.
http://www.bbairguns.com/model25.htm
Joe-Joe,
Noticed some differances.
My early variant 4 has the rear site forward on the reciever and it's the five step, sliding wedge type.
My stock is walnut with a straight 'English' grip.
The new ones have the five groove pump handle of a variant 4, but the pistol grip stock of the variant 5 and later, and the stamped reciever of a variant 7.
Paul.
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Dave,
No, and I've been meaning to correct that in my sig line. A while back I looked and behind all the junk I saw it's wood stock in the back of the closet shelf. I dug it out the other night and was very surprised to find that it's no longer a Red rider - it had turned into a model 102. HUH ?????
Then I remembered some years ago I had swapped with one of my nephews when he out grew this old 102 (looks very much like the 105). I should see about getting the Red Rider back.
And now I see Daisy has the model 25 listed on their website, but no picture available yet.
Paul.
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Here's a pic of the old girl.
Paul.
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OK,got my chrony today and ran some bb's through the 25.Granted I didn't test it before the tune but I got a low of 335fps and a high of 352fps.I'll have to test it against the bone stock one I have to see if the addition of the washers made any differance.The thing that worries me is I got my fastest shots first then it started slowing down,I'm thinking I may have over lubed it.I'll shoot it some more before I tear it down again.If I tear it down to clean it up I'll test with and with out the washers.
To answer an earlier question the spring is close to bound with the 3 washers and I'd say their about 3/16 of an inch thick.
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your gun shoots about 20 fps faster than mine.
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You guys are thinking too much. Those guns, like old .22 pumps, aren't meant for refinement. Just pumping out the shots, lickety-split. It is a great post, BTW. I dropped by my local Dick's where they have four in stock, but they are all stickered at $49.99. While not a lot more, that's the highest I've seen them at and 25% more than BassPro. Still cheaper than a good original, though.
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".........I dropped by my local Dick's where they have four in stock, but they are all stickered at $49.99. ............"
That's gettin up there, but then, it doesn't sound so bad when you see that Daisy has them for $74.00 on thier website and as of last night, no picture of what they look like.
But yeah, pumping out BB's they can do. Hold back the trigger and they spit as fast as the pump will go. Part of the reason mine is so worn out. Only thing faster was the BB gun machine guns at Coney Island, boy did I eat up alot of quarters with them !!!!!!
Anyway, oiled up the old girl last night and let her sit to soak. Got 'dark' BB's already sorted out, I'll try another string over the chrony today.
Paul
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Paul,I'm sure you have way more experience with a chrony than me(hey I've got 24 hours under my belt)but I bought 2 cheap LED stick on touch lights and mounted them to the sun shades and only got about 1 error in 10 that way.
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Joe-Joe,
Not realy. I only got the F-1 a couple months ago and have run about 20 strings across it so far.
With, or without the sky screens, blue sky or cloudy, it doesn't want to consistantly read anything shiny. I had the same problem when I tested shiny gold Gamo Raptors. Even with the tarnished BB's, I have to shoot about an inch above and directly centered over the electric eye openings or all I get is "error".
Not a problem with lead pellets - it reads every shot.
I should hook up some electric light sources also.
Paul.
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did anyone do a coilcount on the spring. what ab out wire diameter and guide diamteter. i have a nice FWB 300s spirng laying around.
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The guide diameter is .5 in,There are 23 coils on the spring.Sorry I didn't get the spring wire diameter or the outside dia. but the tube is .875 i/d so I'd guess the spring o/d is somewhere around .75.
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Just to compare...
Oiled the innards of the old 25 two days ago and let her sit to soak. This morning I ran it over the chrony again.
After a few shots to get the excess oil out, she averaged 286.8 with a spread of 19.1. Thats an increase of 79.9 avg and just about the same spread as before I oiled it. Compared to the new ones, I think that's not bad for a BB gun that's almost 90 years old and has had a bazilion BB's through it.
Paul.
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i can't seem to get the cocking linkage to separate from the action. can this be done before the retaining tab is removed? or is it connected to the retainer block and it it comes out with the retainer block?
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never mind. i got it. now i just need to make the spring compressing tool. thats the most difficult part of hte whole thing. i don't have my vernier calipers here at home. can i assume you need 3/4 OD steel pipe. it looks like it has an ouside taper.
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the little tab came out with ease but the spring assembly does not want to move. is there somethng else holding it?
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Larry I thought it was just mine so I didn't mention it.No there is no other trick ,the assembly is tight.First time I took mine out I got a nice little gash on my finger.As far as the tool is concerned yes 3/4 outside dia.
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actually i was able to do it without a tool. the tab nearly fell out after i got it pushed part way. no spring tension of any consequence was holding against it. i then put a wood block against the round part of the slide where it pins to the rear piece that slides out. tapped it out. i think it will go back easier since i have polished the surfaces and will lube them with moly.
this thing is a bur fest. everything that slides has rough burs. i am de-buring and fitting all those parts so they will be smoother. there is a lot of slop between the spring and guide. might put a piece of shrink tube on it but that may slow it down. not sure what i will do about the spring. i have some spacers that will fit. how did you determine that it can't take any more spacing than you used?
for lube i will moly most everything that slides against metal. i am wondering what to use on the sprng. in most rifles i would use JM"s tar but t hat would probably slow it down. i am thinking abuot moly on the spring since i am not worried about it dieseling. just that mght speed it up. did you keep the foam oil ring?
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Since I greased it I eliminated the foam ring,I believe it's there to hold oil and the grease should take care of that.I determined the spring was near maxed out when I put it together and could see the spring coils pert near touching each other through the oil hole when cocked.Like those burs do ya?looks like you could saw a small tree down with that spring guide.lol........Let us know how she comes out.I found some springs that would work at Sears hardware but it doesn't look like the guts would take too much more stress.
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jm has a "universal mini spring that has slightly thicker wire and is just over .5 inside diameter. it would be a close fit inside the tube and it is 29 coils. it would have to be shortened quite a bit and might not do much for it. i will see how some spacing and the de-bur, polish and lube works out. i think moly is the best lube because it works well for metal to metal and bcomes bonded to the metal. you don't need heavy application. i will put everywhere that friction could occur. i also polished the cocking shoe that engages the slide. and i polised the air tube and will moly that as well. just reducing friction might add some fps. i used a polishing wheel and ruege to to polish surfaces. i used a file and sandpaper to de-bur.
i cut a couple of coils out of the silver trigger return spring and de-bured the sear but not modify its shape or the amount of engagement.
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its all back together now. i did not space the spring. just moly on everything. it feels a little smoother when i cock it and it feels a little more snappy. will not really know untill i shoot it over the chrony which is at my office. tomorrow i will see if just de-bur and lube does anything.
i did put a pretty good coat of moly on the piston seal. i am not getting a spray of oil but i do get a little puff of smoke. i can't imagine it dieseling but maybe. anyway it feels like it is speeding up a little as i shoot it. i tore the little foam oil colar but there is enough moly to keep it lubed for
quite a while.
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ok, the chrony says i picked up about 15 fps. the high was 339. this with no spring change. just lube, polish and de-bur. i did not re-size the seal and it is still tight so i bet it will be shooting
to spec as it breaks in.
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Larry;
Just curious, what did you get for extreme spread on the chrony string?
Maybe just coincedence, but mine gained 80 fps by oiling, but the spread stayed the same at 19.
Joe-joe's shimmed-up model 25 has an extreme spread of 17.
I wonder if that's a common range of extreme spread, due to production tolerances of the BB's ????
Paul.
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i only wrote down the extreme spread on my first out of the box string. that was 11.85.