GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => China Gate => : DMikeM April 02, 2010, 06:10:07 AM
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Since rebuilding my .22 cal B26-2 it does not seem to have the power it used to have using either spring Mike M sent me (New seals installed too). I used to be able to punch holes in beer bottle caps at 8 yards easily now I have to hit them dead center to punch through my .177 will punch through even if I hit the edges of the caps. I don't have a chrony but will try to borrow one again soon to compare against before my spring broke.
Does anyone know if Vortek has completed the build on the kit for the smaller compression chambered B26 yet?
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Mike, can't help you with the question regarding the vortek. But I would like to know about the springs that you used. How do the replacement spring(s) compare in length, number of coils and wire thickness compared against the spring that came installed in the B-26. Just so I may use your information on my B-26 in the future.
Thanks, Bogey
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I got both springs from Mike Melick. He informed me one was same as original and the other was a shorter from the "RWS 320, slightly shorter but is German made". I did not compare them to the original as it was broken in several places. Comparing the strength needed to cock the gun in relation to my B26 .177 it is much harder to cock the .22 with the new spring.
I am pretty sure I have run more than enough pellets through this tune to have it settled in, and the shot cycle is very smooth with either spring but was really pleasant with the shorter spring and more accurate too. But I don't just punch paper with my guns, I have pests and like to go to the desert and hunt for rodents of varied sizes.
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I had a e-mail from Vortek 3/27 and they told me that a few beta field test kits were out on loan right now so I am thinking the production kits can't be too far behind. I have two on order and I am looking forward to trying them out myself.
W
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That's good news Walt
Thanks..
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ya i also would like to inquire soom info of the old spring that broke for comparisons with my own and also looking for replacement stronger spring than original. mine came out the box slow/weak but very smooth and semi accurate , i just recently vanquished a nutter with a 8.4 grain to the noggin and it did not even penetrate though it did the trick i think it needs some more go go for tree rats around here.
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I will see if I still have the broken spring and try to count the coils and let you guys know, I will also count out the German spring as it is in a baggie right now. I have the "factory" spring in the gun right now. I also contacted my bud that has the chrony and he will be loaning it to me shortly.
My .177 B26 eliminated a nutter at 30+ yards yesterday off the ground, head shot through and through using the Beeman 7.2 gr Coated HP pellets you can get from wally world. The shot was so clean it was like a rod was pushed right through his head just above and behind the eyes. A couple of days ago I took a shot at what I think was the same nutter with the .22 cal using an RWS Super Dome, same distance only treed, it knocked the rat right out of the tree but he got up and ran off. Looked like I hit just behind the front leg, also the sound was like shooting at a phone book at 15 yards when it hit the rat. The expired one from yesterday had no other signs if injury.
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thanks the spring count would be cool and the od and id if you have the tools handy that would be a big help.i hate the nutters it's war here. :)
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ST has crosman spring and seal used on his B-26-2 and claimed it up his fps to about 70fps and still shoot smooth.
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Not 70 but 20FPS. That is using RWS superdomes 8.3 grains pellets.
Here are some data that might be of use to you:
Stock B26 Piston Spring:
Uncompressed length: 11.5"
Wire Thickness: 0.118"
Spring O.D.: 0.73"
Spring I.D.: 0.481"
Number of Coils: 40
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B26 Replacement Piston Spring (From MM):
Uncompressed length: 11"
Wire Thickness: 0.118"
Spring O.D.: 0.728"
Spring I.D.: 0.467"
Number of Coils: 37
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Crosman Quest Piston Spring:
Uncompressed length: 10.25"
Wire Thickness: 0.123"
Spring O.D.: 0.731"
Spring I.D.: 0.484"
Number of Coils: 36
Hope this helps. The B26/Crosman Spring combo shoots hard as in hard but not twangy. I said hard because you can feel the recoil considerably but not detrimental to its innate accuracy. Just a straight thud on your shoulder but without the tendency to twist on your open palm. I put a custom delrin top hat to it courtesy of a very generous airgunner friend. You can try it if you want. The Crosman spring is cheaper and I have a spare that is why I decided to play around with it when the stock B26 spring gave up on me. If you want a more solid rear spring guide you can actually use the Crosman Quest rear spring guide on the B26 but you have to leave out the heavy additional preload metal part and you have to file away some parts on the rear of the guide until it is about 3/16" thick.
This is my chrony data for the B26/Crosman piston spring setup:
Lo - 892.5 FPS
Hi - 909.8 FPS
Ave - 900.1 FPS
ES - 17.37
Sd - 7.00
10 shot strings
10 - 892.7
9 - 909.8
8 - 892.5
7 - 896.5
6 - 909.3
5 - 894.1
4 - 903.0
3 - 895.8
2 - 908.1
1 - 899.5
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thanks speedturtle all this helps i have a couple springs laying around is why i ask and i have a machine shop in the garage waiting for me to get up and do it ,actually waiting on the delrin rods for lath so i can remanufacture the parts custom.i went with the apex seal on it's way same with crony and i will post before and after stats.
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Awesome! Good luck on your tuning and hope that you will post a comprehensive report here so others can learn from your experiment. having your own machine shop is really a big plus if you're an airgun tweaker. LOL!
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shady816 - 4/3/2010 8:46 AM
thanks the spring count would be cool and the od and id if you have the tools handy that would be a big help.i hate the nutters it's war here. :)
I chucked mine in the trash but it looks like Speedturtle has us covered.
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Great information, thanks. Where do you get the springs and where might one get some of these delrin guides and top hats?
speedturtle - 4/3/2010 5:24 PM
Not 70 but 20FPS. That is using RWS superdomes 8.3 grains pellets.
Here are some data that might be of use to you:
Stock B26 Piston Spring:
Uncompressed length: 11.5"
Wire Thickness: 0.118"
Spring O.D.: 0.73"
Spring I.D.: 0.481"
Number of Coils: 40
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B26 Replacement Piston Spring (From MM):
Uncompressed length: 11"
Wire Thickness: 0.118"
Spring O.D.: 0.728"
Spring I.D.: 0.467"
Number of Coils: 37
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Crosman Quest Piston Spring:
Uncompressed length: 10.25"
Wire Thickness: 0.123"
Spring O.D.: 0.731"
Spring I.D.: 0.484"
Number of Coils: 36
Hope this helps. The B26/Crosman Spring combo shoots hard as in hard but not twangy. I said hard because you can feel the recoil considerably but not detrimental to its innate accuracy. Just a straight thud on your shoulder but without the tendency to twist on your open palm. I put a custom delrin top hat to it courtesy of a very generous airgunner friend. You can try it if you want. The Crosman spring is cheaper and I have a spare that is why I decided to play around with it when the stock B26 spring gave up on me. If you want a more solid rear spring guide you can actually use the Crosman Quest rear spring guide on the B26 but you have to leave out the heavy additional preload metal part and you have to file away some parts on the rear of the guide until it is about 3/16" thick.
This is my chrony data for the B26/Crosman piston spring setup:
Lo - 892.5 FPS
Hi - 909.8 FPS
Ave - 900.1 FPS
ES - 17.37
Sd - 7.00
10 shot strings
10 - 892.7
9 - 909.8
8 - 892.5
7 - 896.5
6 - 909.3
5 - 894.1
4 - 903.0
3 - 895.8
2 - 908.1
1 - 899.5
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Great info guys! As a newbie to airgunning,if and when possible please include pics with any of these mods. I recently bought a MM tuned B26-2 and would like to be able to perform some mods on my own minus the mistakes that novices make. Next mod will be a full shroud LDC.
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turbonoma, i think this will help you in some ways regarding your MM BAM b-26. Enjoy.
Link: http://www.airgunone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2549
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Nice tutorial Speedturtle. Converted to PDF to save in my gun stuff folder. I like your compressor. I think I will rip mine down and convert it to something like you have there.
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Always happy to be of help to a fellow airgunner, DMikeM.
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Hey Speedturtle, mind telling me how long is that LDC on your rifle? Thinking of getting one for my B26-2 from Rich.
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It's 16 inches from the edge of the breech block to the end of the tube. HTH
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speedturtle - 4/4/2010 9:29 PM
It's 16 inches from the edge of the breech block to the end of the tube. HTH
I just took a measurement from the front of the breach block to the tip of the muzzle brake and it's 13 inches long. Do you have a non stock barrel on your B26-2?
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Nope. It is still the stock barrel length of the B26. The way to measure the length of a barrel is from the tip of the muzzle to the face of the breech. HTH.
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Here' how I measured the barrel.
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Looks like there are no plans to produce a Vortek for the smaller chambered B26. I emails Vortek and they replied with pretty much that info. Very disappointing.
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what spring of jm's did you use? was it the E9870 if so i am very pleased with that spring in mine with plenty of power almost to much.i'm sorry i see it was a MM spring .
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I don't know what spring I need to order for the smaller tube B26, I think Mike said it was something like 25mm. I will check my emails and see if the info is in there. Once I find out I will get a spring and seal to match it as this gun is very accurate but the power is gone.
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That's a yes on the small tube B26, it's 25mm.
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Thanks Turbo,
Hey Shady, since you created all those parts for your B26 would you know if yours was the 25MM model? If so then I will be able to buy that same spring and the apex small from JM and try to get my gun back up to power.
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yes sir I do believe mine is a 25 mm the original seal is 25.28 mm but it has been out the gun for a week or more. the internal id measured of the gun was 24.95 mm...... I ordered at the same time a R tarantula spring that worked as well but it's OD measurement was just to big and would cause crunchy sounds when cocking it (spring expanding into the inner piston walls)but for power with that spring was potent but recoil and sound was just violent to say the least. the e9870 was a awesome fit and was easy to install with great clearances in all area's as well it is longer than the stock spring and has more preload but is easily cocked and surprisingly powerful if I were doing another b26 that would be the spring I would use and as far as the apex seal I did not use a micrometer to determine it's fit I went by feel not to tight but not to easy to move by hand it took one brush with sand paper on the lathe and that was it.
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Shady,
Thanks for the info and help so the e9870 and the Apex Small seal would be a good choice for purchase if I want to retune this B26-2? I can use Soda bottle plastic for buttons if I remember right, but what adhesive would be best?
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i had some two part epoxy left from my model airplanes that i used it has a 30 minute set time and when cured the only way to remove is by sanding it off be carful that what you use does not melt your buttons most instant glues contain a cemical that will melt plastic and such at first contact.
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I have some of that from doing the stock repairs, 5 minute 2 ton epoxy. I will order the stuff from JM today. At least I will have it next week to fool around with. Hey since my guns and yours are the same size compression tubes would you still need the action to mil those delrin parts or or would you be able to duplicate what your made for your gun? If so maybe we should talk price if you are still willing to fabricate me a couple of kits.
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i would have no problem fabing you some guides but unfortunatly i did not write anything down for measurements i just keep measuring and machining one piece at a time so i would have to dissassemble mine and remeasure it all which i guess i could do since it would only require pulling the spring out and as far as price just cover the shipping and that would be good i have no issues with helping out.
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I wouldn't want you to put yourself out having to tear your gun down yet again. But if you had plans to do so in the future I could wait.
As for cost of shipping no trouble at all I could send you a UPS label or payal you the shipping cost or COD or whatever is easiest. I also could just have you use my shipper number for UPs and it would just be charged back to me.
So let me know and I do really appreciate the help and such.
thanks
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Well the spring, seal and buttons should be at the post office today.
I changed the seal already once last weekend using the larger seal that Mike had sent me only I sanded it down just a little so it would fit. During this procedure I found that there is a large gouge in the compression tube that I assume happened when the spring broke. So I went and got a cylinder hone and smoothed things out as much as I thought was safe. Still no joy on the power of the gun, but it sure shoots like a dream now just a good solid thump no crunch, buzz or twang at all. If I cannot resolve the power issue with the new spring and seal I will just use it for light shooting and get a new .22 cal springer. I think that gouge is killing my compression.
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have you chrony tested the fps to see just how down on power it may be because mine i thought was down due to it being so pleasent to cock and shoot only to shoot it across the chrony with my other guns to find that it was my most powerful even up against my gas ramed hunter but not by much though my hunter will out shoot it on the targets all day long.
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shady816 - 4/21/2010 3:32 PM
have you chrony tested the fps to see just how down on power it may be because mine i thought was down due to it being so pleasent to cock and shoot only to shoot it across the chrony with my other guns to find that it was my most powerful even up against my gas ramed hunter but not by much though my hunter will out shoot it on the targets all day long.
I have not run it over a chrony, but will have the chance this weekend I think. My test is to shoot at a bottle cap at 10 yards or less and see if it penetrates. My RWS M34 does it fine and my B26-2 .22 used to before the spring broke, now it does not penetrate. My B26 .177 will penetrate at 30 yards.
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Installed the new seal and spring from JM, it was much longer than the one I got from Mike. I also buttoned the piston. Got it all back together and the shot is awesome. It feels really solid no vibration or any twist. Shot some bottle caps and to my disappointment they still don't penetrate. But just for good measure I got out the RWS 34P and tried the same shot and it also did not penetrate, I found that both guns would penetrate the caps on the second shot where the cap was bent and closer to the wood backing. I am now thinking there was nothing wrong with the B26-2 but it was just the holes I set the caps in became so distorted that the caps gave in instead of holding tight for the pellet. Hopefully I will have the chrony this weekend to test out both guns again.
It sure shoots nice though, can't wait for this snow storm to clear out so I can do some yard shooting again.
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speedturtle - 4/3/2010 5:24 PM
Not 70 but 20FPS. That is using RWS superdomes 8.3 grains pellets.
Here are some data that might be of use to you:
Stock B26 Piston Spring:
Uncompressed length: 11.5"
Wire Thickness: 0.118"
Spring O.D.: 0.73"
Spring I.D.: 0.481"
Number of Coils: 40
------
B26 Replacement Piston Spring (From MM):
Uncompressed length: 11"
Wire Thickness: 0.118"
Spring O.D.: 0.728"
Spring I.D.: 0.467"
Number of Coils: 37
-------
Crosman Quest Piston Spring:
Uncompressed length: 10.25"
Wire Thickness: 0.123"
Spring O.D.: 0.731"
Spring I.D.: 0.484"
Number of Coils: 36
Hope this helps. The B26/Crosman Spring combo shoots hard as in hard but not twangy. I said hard because you can feel the recoil considerably but not detrimental to its innate accuracy. Just a straight thud on your shoulder but without the tendency to twist on your open palm. I put a custom delrin top hat to it courtesy of a very generous airgunner friend. You can try it if you want. The Crosman spring is cheaper and I have a spare that is why I decided to play around with it when the stock B26 spring gave up on me. If you want a more solid rear spring guide you can actually use the Crosman Quest rear spring guide on the B26 but you have to leave out the heavy additional preload metal part and you have to file away some parts on the rear of the guide until it is about 3/16" thick.
This is my chrony data for the B26/Crosman piston spring setup:
Lo - 892.5 FPS
Hi - 909.8 FPS
Ave - 900.1 FPS
ES - 17.37
Sd - 7.00
10 shot strings
10 - 892.7
9 - 909.8
8 - 892.5
7 - 896.5
6 - 909.3
5 - 894.1
4 - 903.0
3 - 895.8
2 - 908.1
1 - 899.5
Hey Speedturtle, where did you get the Crosman Quest Spring and Guide? I would like to try this combo out on my .177 B26. This weekend I replaced the factory spring with the RWS 320 spring Mike sent me, this spring shoots real nice but I would like to see a few more FPS out of this gun if I can get them. If this works well in the .177 it may be worth it to try in the .22 B26-2.
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did you try the maccari spring yet, just currious to what you got for fps if you did and i will give you some fps numbers this week with mine for my chrony final will arrive tomorrow them suckers were out of stock everywhere. i hate backorder
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You can buy them direct at Crosman Corp. USA. I think they sell at around $6 - $7 per spring. The rear spring guide is also almost the same price. Worth experimenting, bro.
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speedturtle - 5/3/2010 3:51 PM
You can buy them direct at Crosman Corp. USA. I think they sell at around $6 - $7 per spring. The rear spring guide is also almost the same price. Worth experimenting, bro.
Thanks. I also sent an email to %%*^(()*)%$*% to see what he says..
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shady816 - 5/3/2010 3:43 PM
did you try the maccari spring yet, just currious to what you got for fps if you did and i will give you some fps numbers this week with mine for my chrony final will arrive tomorrow them suckers were out of stock everywhere. i hate backorder
Yes I made some spring switches. I will post some number tonight if time permits.
Here are the numbers from last week Chrony 2 foot away. Right now I have given up on the .22 cal. and will be focusing on the .177 for awhile.
My B26 .22 cal
656 with RWS SPHP (original Spring)
570 With RWS SPHP (JM Spring and seal)
580 RWS SPD JM Spring
580 AA Diablo 16 gr
535 with AA Falcon 13.4 gr
565 with CPHP
Bam B26 .177
780 High average medium to light pellets 7.1 to 8.6gr
680 Low average 8.8 to 10.5 gr.
Temps in the middle to high 60s F.
New spring installed over the weekend in .177. will shoot it some more then run a chrony on it. Initial tests were slightly lower over all but climbing as I shot even though I did not remove piston or touch the seal.
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DmikeM, I saw your post about your FPS data and they seemed to be really low. How about trying it out with the JM spring and the stock piston seal? Is the JM seal too tight? Play around with some washers at the rear of the spring to increase preload if the space can accommodate them. Do you have an specific FPS range goal in mind? Just curious. :)
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your not lacking much there with the 177 mine at my local bow shop was 900 - 889 with 7.9 grain, i think in time yours will pick up but i don't have a .22 to compare. i will put up some numbers this week.
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speedturtle - 5/3/2010 4:13 PM
DmikeM, I saw your post about your FPS data and they seemed to be really low. How about trying it out with the JM spring and the stock piston seal? Is the JM seal too tight? Play around with some washers at the rear of the spring to increase preload if the space can accommodate them. Do you have an specific FPS goal in mind? Just curious. :)
I would like to get close to the number you are seeing. But again I am at 6800 feet above sea level so I will be short about 20 to 50 FPS. The B26-2 .22 cal has the JM Euro spring and the Apex small in it now. There is a considerable length difference from the factory spring but no real improvement. I added some buttons and cleaned it up nice, the gun cocks and shoot like a dream but just not as strong as it should be. Seriously I was able to punch a paper .177 cal sized dot from about 35 yards 3 shots in a row with it. Then had a nutter venture into my shooting range. The shot went through his chest cavity exactly where I aimed and lodged just under the skin on the other side. So the gun is accurate and deadly but shoots a little soft.
I tested 3 springs in the B26 .177 this weekend and decided on a shorter RWS 320 spring that Mike sent me. I do not have the actual number with me here at work but will try to post that info once I get home. But they are about 150 fps short of your crosman spring numbers if I remember right. Very accurate and also deadly, but I think somewhere in the 850 fps range would be more appropriate. BTW that RWS 320 spring shoots like butter and the shot is just a thump and straight back no twist or vibrations.
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Then I suggest you keep your present setup and not mess with it anymore. I will always go for accuracy then smoothness second. JMO based on my experiments the 0.177 B26 can be nicely tuned to shoot at that 800-850FPS range with good accuracy and control on recoil. :) Good luck DMikeM.