GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Crosman-Benjamin Gate => : HNT5 May 09, 2010, 03:32:58 PM
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I expected that to happen once I started shooting it more. I went to the range today and shot the Trail about 75 times. Although the cocking effort isn’t too bad, shooting that many shots do get a little tiring. Yea, the trigger pretty much stinks. It’s not that it has too much pull weight, it just travels forever it seems. I would equate its cocking effort to slightly higher than my M350, more like my RX-1. I shot mostly Kodiaks, but did try several different pellets. I was trying to be somewhat accurate, but I didn’t spend a lot of time lining up each shot. Controlled haste, I would call it. My initial take on the accuracy was that it’s ok. Not great, just ok so far. The pellet that showed the most promise was Gamo hunters.Gamo Master Points were the worst. JSB Exact and Heavy were ok. Now in all fairness, I didn’t spend too much time trying to work on the technique. Plus after every 10 shots or so, I pulled a patch with some Outers GunSlick. The patches would come out black with all the stuff burning off. I noticed toward the end of the shooting that the smoke, although there, was diminishing. Plus I didn’t check the stock screws till I was done shooting and both forearm ones were loose. I chronographed the gun afterward and got these numbers using the same tin of Kodiaks I used before plus 2 others. These numbers are at 4700 ft above sea level.
Kodiaks averaged 666.2, SD 6.01 Ft/lbs 20.8
FTS averaged 812.0 SD 4.36 Ft/lbs 23.3
Gamo Hunter averaged 748.6 SD 6.07 Ft/lbs 19.7
For comparison, my stock refurbished RWS .22 M52 averaged 621.2 with Kodiaks.
I’m debating opening up the gun to clean it as the numbers have seemed to calmed down. There is still some smoke but the numbers are looking pretty good to me so I think the piston seal is in pretty good shape. I’m thinking just order the replacement trigger, loctite all the screws and shoot it. There is a lot to like about this rifle.
Nathan
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Those are pretty low numbers for the NP XL. You should be up in the 800s at least. I have an NPSS that were giving me poor numbers as well, and it turned out that the gas ram was losing power. After I contacted Crosman for a replacement gas ram and I put it back in my rifle, the numbers went up to 815 fps. Contact Crosman and see about getting the gun replaced or getting a replacement gas ram, if you can do the work yourself.
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I hope it is not your Nitro piston as mine failed and Crosman made me swap out the entire rifle. You lose all the familiarity you gained getting to know the nuances of the new gun, not to mention the time invested cleaning it up, maybe polishing a few pieces, etc. They told me it had to be a whole gun swap as they did not have replacement parts because it was manufactured in china. I think some of the Nitro pistons are made here but perhaps they ones for the Trail are made over there? I hope that is corrected soon and all replacement parts become available. As an aside, my chrony arrived the day after my piston failed. The gun became a breeze to cock, less than my R9, but I chrony'd it for fun. I recall I was getting ~ 550 fps with 14.3 CPHP's
Prior to my piston failing I had requested a replacement breech seal as mine was in rough shape. To their credit Crosman sent me one very quickly but it turned out to be the incorrect seal. It isn't clear to me if they have replacements on hand or not. Even my new Trail they sent me has an ugly, irregular seal and I'd like to replace it. I wish there was an after-market breech seal for it but I am not aware of one. I guess my point here is they may not be stocked with replacement parts as we would like.
Have you tried shooting any lighter pellets (lighter than the JSB Exacts) and have numbers for them?
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Nathan,
Correcting for alitude loss at 2% and figuring the kodiacs are so heavy, I say your close to where you should be while still breaking in the original seal. Corrected, it puts you somewhere around 725fps .... and the spread is not bad. Plus, those numbers will most likely come up some as the seal wears in... which being nylon and oily, could take a long time.
At first I was also a bit disapointed with my XL's speed, but when I correct for the 1000 ft differance between here and Long Island, I saw that my XL is shooting Predators right in the range of where Jeff's (LongIslandHunter) XL does with Predators.
And don't forget, other Chronys may not read anywhere near what your's does. That could be a real wild card when trying to compare your gun to what other's guns are doing !!!!!
While it's wearing in, it will be tough to find it's favorite pellet, and it's favorite hold. Mine looked as if it was going to hate all pellets until I replaced the seal and that started to settle in. Then it shot more consistant so that I could see which hold worked best. Then, once I figured out the hold it liked, I could see what it was capable of with each pellet I tried. Only then could I see that the Preds were capable of going into one ragged hole at 30 yards. The other pellets grouped better also, but no where near as much of an improvement as the Preds did. But, while it was smoking and I didn't know the hold, the Preds didn't look to be any better. In fact, early on, the Super Hollow Points looked like they were going to be the best - now they are second best by a good margin.
Yes, that pellet speed spread is way better than mine was even at 300 pellets when I opened it up and found the chewed up seal. The fact that it was still smoking and shooting very inconsistant after so many pellets through it lead me to the conclusion that there had to be a problem with the seal .
I say keep working on removing variables as much as you can. Only then will you know what your gun is capable of, or if it needs repair.
Paul.
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I may call Crosman Customer Service today and see what they think. I hate to send the rifle back for a miniml gain in fps. I could swap out the seal(either with the JM or factory one) and even the ram if they sent me a replacement. The SD's are pretty decent so I'm wondering if that's all the better this particular rifle is going to get. But whose to say that if they send me a replacement rifle that it would do much better?
Nathan
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ive had mine for about 2 weeks now and the gun still smokes every few shots. that being said ive put about 600 rounds thru it and it seems to be settling down but i cant figure out if the scope is moving or its the gun. case in point yesterday i was shooting at 20 yards with predators and crosman premiers. first round of shots[15 each] predators were shooting 3" low and slightly left. crossmans were shooting pretty much center. were grouping ok within an inch and a half. waited 20 minutes and shot another round. crosman were shooting 3"high and predators were pretty much in the original spot. i can get the gun to pattern good at 20 yards but move to thirty and the pellets are everywhere. now i am not a match shooter but i can hold my own. do you think the gun is still breaking in or should i clean the barrel. havent done anything but run a few patches thru it prior to the first shot.
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HNT5 - 5/10/2010 8:29 AM
........... The SD's are pretty decent so I'm wondering if that's all the better this particular rifle is going to get. But whose to say that if they send me a replacement rifle that it would do much better?
Nathan
Exactly !!!!!
Don't know why you think there is a problem with your gun. What speeds did you expect to see at 4700 feet ASL ??? As I said, I think the gun is very close to what it should be doing at this point in it's break-in period. How do your other guns compare, on average, to others with the same model gun, shooting the same pellets, near Sea level ????
Alot of guys like to compare pellet speeds to judge how their rifle compares to others, but I think few realize what affect the differances in altitude, and the differances in accuracy between differant brands and models of Chronys, can make in addition to the production differance between the same models of AG.
Swap parts, or the gun, and you may not be any better off. Without knowing for certain there is a problem, who's to say the next gun would be better ???
What is certain is that you will be starting all over again, with more questions than you have now, until you've gone through alot of what you've already gone through with this gun. As you said the spead is not bad, which is an indication it is settling down to be consistant. I'd recommend you give it more time to figure out what pellets and hold that gun really likes before you give up on it.
Paul.
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Rick,
You could have ...
Not found it's best pellet yet.
Not found it's best hold yet.
A bad seal.
A bad scope.
Loose fasteners.
A factory trigger ?
Or any combination of the above.
Answering as many of those questions as you can will get you closer to the answer of if your gun has a problem.
I would say, based on what I and others have found inside our XL's, if your still seeing some smoke at 600 pellets, it's a safe bet your seal needs replacing and it won't shoot consistantly until it is replaced.
Paul.
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I discovered my scope slipped a little bit yesterday. I tightened the screws down a little bit more and used a sharp pencil to scribe lines at the rings so I can keep an eye on that. I'm not ready to loctite anything down for another hundred pellets or so.
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my rifle kept on smoking after a tin and a half, so i tore it down and the seal had some bad places but not terrible as some i have seen on here far worse , but there was at least a small spoonful of black grease behind the piston. i would be shooting that thing for months trying to get all that burned off. so thats a thought its not that hard to tear down . worse thing is that plug on the back its pretty tight good luck . thanks david
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rocker1 - 5/10/2010 2:31 PM my rifle kept on smoking after a tin and a half, so i tore it down and the seal had some bad places but not terrible as some i have seen on here far worse , but there was at least a small spoonful of black grease behind the piston. i would be shooting that thing for months trying to get all that burned off. so thats a thought its not that hard to tear down . worse thing is that plug on the back its pretty tight good luck . thanks david
Yessir, that plug was pretty tight. Mine had some kind of tape or thread sealant or something on it and I was wondering what other folks used when they put theirs back on? Teflon tape like regular plumbing stuff?
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I sent Crosman an email asking them what they thought about the numbers from my Trail. I’ll let you know what they say. I just ordered a trigger from Charlie (used my wife’s PayPal, won’t she be surprised) today to replace the stock unit. I’m still debating on tearing it down to clean out the excess lube. It looked like some of that thin oil is actually running down from the trigger group. I can see it on the side and back of the trigger blade. I imagine there is way too much lube inside the gun.
Nathan
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thanks paul. it already has a grt 3 trigger[ thank you bob] that made night and day difference and i have been trying 5 different types of pellets, crosman premier round nose, jsb exact jumbo, jumbo heavys, barracuda 21 gr, and predators. the scope doesn't seem to be moving but i am going to double check it tonite and put some reference marks on it to keep an eye on it. the gun seems to like being held tight to my shoulder and loose at the forearm. again it only smokes a small amount every 5th or 6th shot id say and its driving pellets thru two sheets of 1/2"ply at 20 yards so it feels plenty powerful. i just cant figure out why the pattern moves around like it does. do you think this could be a bad seal? ive not had one of these apart before and it is still under warranty[ this is my second replacement as the first would not cock and i had to repair the second because the cocking arm bushing fell out. thanks for the help on that one] what would you do? send it back or buy a replacement seal and attempt to put it in? i do notice a fairly dramatic difference in where the pattern of the predators vs the crosmans at 20 yards. again they are decent patterns but several inches apart. is this normal? sorry for all the ?s. im new
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wahoowad - 5/10/2010 2:40 PM
Yessir, that plug was pretty tight. Mine had some kind of tape or thread sealant or something on it and I was wondering what other folks used when they put theirs back on? Teflon tape like regular plumbing stuff?
It feels just like, and it came off in thin "threads" just like, teflon tape that I've used on and removed from threaded fittings many times, so good possability that's what it is.
Because the end cap is plastic and it has a very fine pitch thread, the factory may have used Teflon tape to reduce friction and make a dry threaded connection easier to assemble without chewing up the plastic threads of the end cap. Also, since so many of these XL's seem to have excessive amounts of very light-weight oil in them, they may also have used the tape to keep that oil from leaking/wicking out the end cap threads and becoming unsightly.
Since I had cleaned all the light weight oil out of mine, and the end cap threads were a nice, snug fit into the reciever, I didn't use any tape on the threads when I reassembled it.
Paul.
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going2fast - 5/10/2010 3:17 PM
.......... again it only smokes a small amount every 5th or 6th shot id say and its driving pellets thru two sheets of 1/2"ply at 20 yards so it feels plenty powerful. i just cant figure out why the pattern moves around like it does. do you think this could be a bad seal? ive not had one of these apart before and it is still under warranty[ this is my second replacement as the first would not cock and i had to repair the second because the cocking arm bushing fell out. thanks for the help on that one] what would you do? send it back or buy a replacement seal and attempt to put it in? i do notice a fairly dramatic difference in where the pattern of the predators vs the crosmans at 20 yards. again they are decent patterns but several inches apart. is this normal? sorry for all the ?s. im new
Through two sheets of 1/2 inch ply at 20 yards ? Wow, not lacking for power ...or you've got some really poor quality plywood !!! :D
Mine smoked up until 300 pellets then I'd figured enough and opened it up. But, after the first 100 shots there was only smoke in the barrel, not coming out the muzzle, or the breach when opened. Still, the smoke wasn't lessening as fast as I would expect with a good seal, so I opened it up.
As Gene pointed out, the original harder nylon seals don't seal as well as the Maccari softer seals. Also, if there is an excessive amount of oil getting on the seal, chamber and piston, there is a slight negative pressure in the chamber when you cock the gun - (that "pressure drop" is how air gets pulled into the compression chamber). The faster you cock the gun the more negative pressure you make because of air resistance going in through the port in the compression chamber. Cock the gun quickly and you can still get some oil (and air) being sucked past a seal that isn't chewed up.
If you think about what's going on in there. The gun sits, and oil by it's nature likes to travel to areas of less oil. Shoot the gun, you use up some of the oil in the piston stroke (swept volume) area. Depending on seal damage or not, plus how fast you cock the gun, that can vary the amount of oil getting into the chamber. That's burnable "fuel" being introduced into the compression chamber in varying amounts, and as such, it can produce varying levels of pressure (power), thus not only varying speeds, but barrel vibration too, which can change POI. Let the gun sit again and the oil may not creep back in the same areas, or same amounts, each time because of changes in internal temperature affecting viscosity, and many other variable the gun is subjected to, etc. Sheesh !!! When you starting realy thinking about what can happen, when and how much, it's amazing we can get some of these piston guns to be anywhere near accurate at the best of times !!! :D
Good seal or bad, if it's still smoking after several hundered pellets, I'd say it's worth at least opening the gun to clean out all the excess oil, de-burr what you can, and then you can check the seal while your at it.
Just be VERY careful re-installing the seal past the threads in the rear end of the reciever. This has been well covered in some of the early threads about changing an XL's seal, and Super Streak seal too.
As far as differant pellets, through the same gun, having a differant POI (Point Of Impact), that's normal.
Paul.
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Do you have any tear down instructions on this trailsXL,or maybe someone would name a place ,where they could be found,i have a gut feeling ,alot of airgunners will be needing them, :) :0
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Blue loctite turns white when it's cured, so that might be the white stuff you're seeing.
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my end cap is steel not sure about yous , tear down is easy just remember when you put the trigger assemby back in to install it properly
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Nice job making the spanner David.
Steel end cap huh? I wonder how many XL's have those.
Like others have found out, the plastic end cap on mines was really tight. While first trying to get it off, I had to put so much force on the spanner, that just about the time I thought for sure it would damage one, or both of the cap's spanner holes, it finally broke free. Big sigh of relief !!! :D
Paul.
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I believe mine is plastic too. But a hard plastic as it withstood the force needed to break it free.
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paul - 5/10/2010 5:00 PM
Do you have any tear down instructions on this trailsXL,or maybe someone would name a place ,where they could be found,i have a gut feeling ,alot of airgunners will be needing them, :) :0
What he said. I looked in the Liberry and well. Not for the Trail XL.
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paul - 5/10/2010 6:00 PM
Do you have any tear down instructions on this trailsXL,or maybe someone would name a place ,where they could be found,i have a gut feeling ,alot of airgunners will be needing them, :) :0
Paul,
The Trail Xl is like tearing down many other springer/gas ram guns that have already been well covered. In fact, the trigger group and anti-bear trap linkage look like they are right out of a Gamo. Any exceptions unique to the XL, plus where to get the correct seal, have been writen up several times in recent posts here in the Crosman-Benjamin Gate.
Between what's in the Library and using the search feature for "Trail XL", I can't think of anymore info one would need.
Paul.
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after hearing you say yours had a plastic cap i went and put a magnet on mine and it is for sure steel on both my guns.
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i had a terrible time getting those caps off i am sure if they would have been plastic i would have broken them as tight as they were.
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What did you use to take them off?
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going2fast - 5/12/2010 8:17 AM
What did you use to take them off?
The correct tool is a "spanner" type wrench with two pins sticking out that can mate up to the two holes in the end cap ( I see that Crosman calls it a "tube cover " in the Super Streak parts listing). If you look at the picture Rocker1 posted about halfway back in this thread, you'll see the one he used. They are not a standard tool, so you'll have to make one, or improvise.
I clamped the breach in the padded jaws of a bench vise and inserted the tips of two matching Philips screwdrivers who's shanks matched the hole sizes, into the holes in the end cap. I held the screwdriver handles together with one hand, making sure to push in hard on them so they wouldn't slip out, while I used a steel bar as a lever between the two screwdriver shanks with the other hand.
Paul.
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I wonder if you could use a small strap wrench?
Nathan
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it really isn't hard at all to tear down other than getting that end cap off and that thing is the devil!!! lol it will have a bit of preload but after you screw it out 4 or 5 turns you can screw it out with your hands. there is plenty of people on here that know far more than i do and i am sure they will be there if you have any quiestions. by they way is your end cap metal or plastic?? thanks david
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For what its worth, those spanner type nuts were a fairly popular item on some cars back in the day, If you don't feel the motivation to gerry-rig one for yourself, you could likely find one of the wrenches at an auto parts store or sears, I know I've seen both new and old ones at flea markets on occasion. They probably wouldn't cost more than a few dollars. They are still used for some marine applications on boats for flush fitting covers. But you would likely pay twice the price at a boating supply store. Just make sure the pin sizes are the same or slightly smaller than the holes on the piston cap, they make a few different sizes. For the record, the XL I just got has a metal cap.
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I have several differant type/size strap wrenches. I don't see any of them able to grip the small exposed area of the cap with enough force to break it loose.
I just about live in their tool department and tool catologs, Sears doesn't carry any type spanners, either pin, or ring.
Marine suppliers have an adjustable version called a, "deck plate key" but, as mentioned, being "marine" it isn't going to be cheap. The ones listed in Jamestown Distributor's marine catolog are over $20.00 and may not fit 3/16 holes. And they don't look long enough to give the controled leverage that will be needed to break the cap loose the first time.
The strongest and probably the easest is make one like rocker1 did - just to drill two holes in a peice of steel bar stock and press-in or epoxy two pieces of 3/16 inch steel rod. Then cut the rods to length to make the pins.
I took the even faster way and just reached in the tool box for two Sears Craftsman #1 sized Philips screw drivers. I put the breach in the padded jaws of a bench vise. Then put the ends of the two Philips screw drivers into the cap holes. Held both screw driver handles together in one hand as I pushed in hard, and with the other hand I used a long, heavy screw driver inbetween the two Philips screw driver's shanks as a lever bar.
Paul.
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I checked - mine is metal.
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If I need to get to that point, I will make my own. I did check Sears on line and they do list one that may fit the bill. They don't offer much in the way of a description.
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Good find, uncle paulie.
I wasn't aware that Sears listed other retailers items on their site. The adjustable Perko's are like the ones we sold, but they were bronze back then.
Big question is will any of them fit the XL end cap, and if so, be strong enough to bust that cap loose the first go round ???? I think that if you can make one to fit the XL, that's the best way to go.
Paul.
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Yes, it's the type of item that would likely take less time to fabricate than to do the research and go shopping for it.
pv
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I just stuck a couple of allen keys with the proper diameter into the holes and put a monkey wrench to it. Worked like a charm.
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My end cap is steel also. The threads on mine are cocked, so the cap actually sits slightly crooked when screwed all the way in. The stuff on mine was definitely teflon tape. I didn't put anything back on it, and it hasn't moved since, hundreds of shots later.
- Orin
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Or you can try Paul's idea in reverse. Clamp the allen wrenches or screwdrivers in the vice, pointed up. Hold the but cap end upside down over the top of it and use a strap wrench. If you don't have a strap wrench, use a padded adjustable wrench (Crescent, monkey, Ford, etc.) on the breech block.
- Orin
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Paul,
I think you might have already posted it, but I can't find where you described your XL's favorite hold. Can you either point me in the right direction or describe it again? Thanks.
- Orin
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In a pinch you might just try a pair of good 'ol needle nose pliers. Spread the forks to enter both holes and screw the cap off.
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Guess there's more than one way to skin a cat, rabbit, squirrel, bird....etc.