GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => China Gate => : DMikeM May 11, 2010, 11:06:30 AM
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All metal kit as opposed to the plastic ones for all the other guns. I will probably order one later this week. Sure looks nice, almost too bad it goes on the inside.
http://vortekproducts.com/home
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I have nothing against the Vortek Kits but IMO a good pro tune will deliver the same results if not better and longevity as well. Remember guys and gals these kits are proprietary and the cost of replacing the parts are much higher than your normal JM springs.
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Gene,
Actually PG2 replacement springs are $14. I just bought a couple Macarri's and the cheapest was $17.
I know Tom Gore and he's a real bonafide airgun guy. He's always looking for ways to make them better. He had a part in the Crosman Nitro piston so he knows what he's doing. He's no snake oil or fly by night salesman.
There was a lot of talk about his PG2 making pro tuners obsolete. Aint gonna happen. I just see his product as another alternative. A really good one at that. Is it worth $69? I think so because it is a drop in kit that doesn't require advanced skills or specialized tools to make a quantum improvement in most guns. He literally had my Diana 34 apart, upgraded and back together in about 10 minutes. The improvement is amazing. I applaud him for some elegant engineering and a product that does what it sets out to do.
Now like I said, it won't replace a real pro tune. I.e., it doesn't hone your compression tube for you or make up for ill fitting pistons. It also won't debur or fit a cocking shoe, Nor will it smomth and adjust a trigger for you. So will there always be a place for a pro tuner? Yup craftsmanship and experience cannot be made from a spring and plastic.
Bottom line for me is any advancement that brings more options to more people so they can enjoy the sport is welcome by me. Plus it is nice to see an honest and hard working airgunner like Tom do well!
Andy Wong aka larspawn
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Yes the Vortec will not replace a good pro tune for sure. And I am one who feels you get what you pay for as well..:) JM buys quality wire and winds his coils himself. To me a Vortec kit is like putting STP in an engine that has lost compression and the valves are clattering...:) But that is fine, I put STP in my old 51 Ford's engine and it gave me more mileage..:)
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I have one in my 34 classic 177 cal. and don't shoot it much(not braggin)it's to accurate to just shooting cans. It's more or less just for hunting,spits them 8.4 jsb's with authority.Pretty happy with my purchase my next one will be for my 350 mag to tame it down.
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I have a well tuned 34 compact that is as nice as my HW 97 to shoot. Extremly accurate as well.. :)
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Mine don't come close to looking like that.That's a very good looking rifle.
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Hey Gene,
I have been tinkering with both my B26 guns for a couple months now and cannot seem to get either one to perform as stated by others. Recently I purchased 2 Crosman Springs and seals for them as I was told this is the best route. Last night I installed one of these sets in my .177 B26 added 2 zinc washers to the top end of the spring and one to the bottom. I noticed the spring was about the same as the RWS 320 spring except the ends were not finished at all. I finished the ends up and polished them before install. I was able to get an additional 50 FPS out of the gun but it is still not up to par with the statements made by other members here. I understand it will get better as it breaks in which was evident as I was shooting last night. But here is where I am going with this, I went through 5 springs and 3 seals to get to this place. I had already deburred and honed the compression tube and performed a trigger tune. Had I been able to purchase the Vortek Kit a month ago I would have just about broke even in dollar amount but would have only had to get into this gun one time (assuming the kit will perform as stated).
So By the time I decide to order a PG2 kit for my .22 B26 my other one will be broken in and will aid me in my decision. Right now the .177 shoots hard with just a little vibration, probably from the washers. But if the PG2 can deliver this with no vibration and less kick I would consider this an essential part of a good over all tune. Also my JM springs and seals for this gun did not deliver the power desired to use this gun for hunting.
I do not discount a good pro tune, but I like to do things myself and this looks like the best means to do so.
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Mike, the Vortec system has proved to work very well on the different model air guns. That is a fact. But as I stated in my previous post that a pro tune works just as well and maybe a bit better..:) With that said a pro tuner only uses springs and seals that have been proven to work with the different models of air guns. With the proper techniques and tooling that a pro tuner has at hand makesallthe difference between a home tune and a pro tune.
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Mike, you are lucky. Getting 50FPS of velocity increase is a lot just by merely changing the spring. When I used the Crosman Quest spring the only increase I got was 20FPS but that was good since my B26 in 0.177 is already hot at around 890FPS using the original spring prior to breakdown. As one fellow member on another forum said "Tuning an airgun is all about a balancing act." I firmly believe that. I would like to add some thing to it: "Balance it in such a way that it will give you repeatable accuracy and not just go for smoothness. although from experience smoothness in the action usually correlates to good accuracy if and only if you have a good barrel to start with." Good luck should ever you decide to install a Vortek kit on your B26. I will definitely await your report on this. :)
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Gene,
Now don't go soft and endorse the Vortek ;-) They'll revoke your pro tuner card. LOL.
Yup no replacement for good old know how from a pro tuner or anybody who's been around the block a couple times! I still have that RWS-320 I bought from you. Smooooth and now that you are retiring I guess I can never sell it. Just like I won't sell any of my other ones that are pro tuned! I figure a bit of airgun history there.
Andy
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Andy, I am not getting soft yet...:) I do not own a Vortec load air gun and never will..:) I know what makes up a fine shooter and a bandage only works so long...:)
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I may have to buy one and send it direct to you!
I should also tell you that my B25 had an ill fitting rear guide that made it twangy/buzzy and I fixed it myself...I used a piece of shrink tubing over the rear guide and then wound the spring down on it. It helped tremendously and while I know you could turn a custom delrin guide for me I have no lathe. Before you poke your eyes out let me tell you that it is an incredibly smooth shooter now and I opened he up a few weeks ago after several thousand pellets and the shrink tube/guide looks the same as when I did it originally.
So there now I've done it and lost all respect here on this forum!
Andy Wong aka bubba
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LOL Andy
Ya shrink tape will workl but there is always the chance of it getting torn up. But yes I do agree with you that it will calm down a twangy springer..:)
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Nothing beat's a good old fashion pro tune and I will never get into the Vortek kit's myself. Ed
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I've waited a little while before responding to this post to see what others might say. I also received several PM's asking for my opinion. Here are my thoughts for what they are worth.
A ten minute drop in kit.... now that has to be a joke. You might be able to drop it in in ten minutes but in the end, ask yourself, what do you really have and what have you really accomplished ??? :o :o
I agree with others that a Pro-Tune or even a home tune if a person is equipped and has the knowledge is far superior to a "package" kit. If it is done properly, a TurboTune will last the life of the gun with the exception of course that some springs do break and are a maintenance item and may need to be replaced in the future. Even then, if properly maintained and the correct pellet weights are used and no dry firing, the springs can have a very long life span. :) :)
I have guns out there that I tuned 8-10 years ago that shoot as well now as they did then. In all of the years that I have tuned guns and we're talking about several thousand TurboTunes, I have only had about ten or so of the JM springs break and that was usually because of incorrect pellet weight or someone introducing lube into the compression chamber or barrel. That's abuse. :0
Instead of doing a "Band-Aid fix" as someone put it, in my opinion your money is far better spent on having a real tune done (or doing one yourself if possible) and having fitted and finished parts fitted to your particular gun as it is being tuned. And the "Band-Aid" fix is usually only temporary and a small part of the tuning process. It's worth little or nothing if all of the other things that are done while tuning are not completed and that doesn't come in any kit. So really, what are you getting...???? And like other Pro-Tuners such as Gene and Ed (Shadow) have said,and if I were still tuning guns, I would never ever consider such an option. For a few dollars more you can get hand crafted results and many years of enjoyment and usually trouble free shooting. 8)
Take the money that you are/were going to spend for a "fix", save and/or add a little more and get the job done or do the job right. You will be much harrier in the long run for it. :D :D
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Its worth a few more dollars getting it tuned by a professional that they know for sure what needs to be done which takes time ,than to home tune it for 15 to what 20 minutes,no way in the world would a home tune come out the same as a pro,s job which they spend at least an hour just to make sure you are satisfied with the performance .....my 2 cents jorge
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I looked at the website and I can't help but wonder if this is "that guy" from Mich that's Draggin?
Am I wrong?
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I think his name is Chris and last I heard he was a distributor and installer of those kits.
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The whole kit looks interesting.....
now on the engineering side...
one thing that comes to mined ....
With the systems is the rear? guide with the
spring being internal..If it was a tight/snug fit
the spring would bined when compressed as
when a compression spring is compressed it
trys to unwined thus incressing in dia so to stop
bineding the external guide would need to be
a sloppy fit & if its not there WILL be bineding when cocked..
but that hidden in the gun so no one sees it...
Now thats why a internal guide systems good ["I won't say better at this point"]
As the gudes can be a nice snug fit because the spring exspands away from the guide
when compressed then when fired grabs the gude at the end of it stroke to stop vibration...just to
get this right yer need to take pre load exspantion into account when makeing the gude..
just a thought...my thoughts...And a possable reason/ not just a opinion...
Pete
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If you mean Chris Pryjomski aka CAP, yes he is an authorized distributor and installer for Vortek. Chris is also a springer tuner and specializes in Webleys. He's got over a dozen in his personal collection. Some with more bling than a rap star.
Tom Gore is the owner of Vortek and the engineer behind the Pro Guide 2 as well as the Crosman Nitro technology which he did for them. Rumor has it he's got some new innovations up his sleeve that may be commercialized soon!
I thnk you might be referring to R!ch From M!ch aka RFM who also goes by peterdragin. Rich is from the West side of Michigan and while he does awesome work on QBs and Gamos he can work on any airgun. He also does barrel replacements and machining and such. As far as I know he is not a distributor of Vortek.
Andy Wong aka larspawn
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Well I'll let you all know in about a week. Got one for my .22 which is shooting in the 500 fps range right now. Damned accurate but just not the punch I expect. I also have a crosman spring and seal for it so what is there to lose at this point.