Author Topic: I haven't seen much about any of you QB guys  (Read 5519 times)

Offline CharlieDaTuna

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I haven't seen much about any of you QB guys
« on: August 20, 2006, 06:33:34 AM »
doing any home tuning or modding. I thought it would be pretty active if several of you got together and shared your ideas, accomplishments and results. It is a super little gun, easy to work on and you can really make some significant improvements in the QB without any special tools or mechanical abilities. Fun to work on too. Guys like Mike in Iowa , ClasicalGas and myself will provide helpful info when needed. Course...we ain't real brite eether :o
Bob  aka:  CharlieDaTuna
Co-founder of the GTA


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Offline ribbonstone

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New guy's review
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2006, 07:25:59 AM »
Ordered a '79 and expected to do a little work to get it working right. Arrived in record time (Compasseco...3 days from order it's at the door).  Unlike most of the posters here, am NOT looking for more power...if anything, may go the other way and modify this one to shoot in the 590-610fps range.

First impresssios:

1. The Chinese are starting to understand stock work and finish.  This one looks good, without that shinny chip prone BS on top, and the inletting is pretty good.
2. They still don't quite get the idea of recoil pad installation.  Pad's joint line to the stock is good...they just don't carry the line out into the pad quite right.
3. Good quality blue without any lathe lines of other roughness.

So...took it out of the stock. That safety system seems like an add-on....having to take the safety out (or inlett the stock to let it pass) smacks of an add-on-design.  Adjusted the trigger...that went well without any problems, getting to a good 1.2pound pull with just a little softness to it (not really enough to call it creep).  Will go back and adjust after it's broken in a bit.

Did notice that the barrel band screw is no longer the reduced-in-the-middle scrrew I expected. This one is full sized (still a small diameter, but at least it's full size all the way) and fits trhough a square slot cut into the barrel.  Kind of glad to see that, I expected to break one or two of those and in fustration make my own slot for a larger screw to pass through.

They could have marked the rear apature in English...but now I know the Chinese for right/left and up/down.

Thae transfer port looked burr-less, but was a bit rough.  Got lazy and decided against a full take down to cure that, so bent a small rod into a short legged "L" and glued a bit of fine paper to it...let the glue dry..and used that to smooth the roughness.

First shots:
This SOB shoots way to the right.

Dump gas and take a look. Barrel seems in line with the breech...and the breech in line with the bottom tube...but as the barrel continues, it's angling a bit off the center line of the bottom tube.

(Get two visually striaght 36" long drill rods or wooden dowels...have to be as visually staright as possible. Roll them on a flat surface to check that straightness.  Tape one to the barrel and one to the bottom tube, then you can see their relationship easily as you've extended thair line a couple of feet past the muzzle.)

  Adjust barrel band...if I really crank on it, will hold.  Take it all loose, slide it back 1", coat area with epoxy (J.B. Weld)...slide band back into place, align barrel, tighten down, let the expody cure for a day.  YES..it is going to be trouble later on to get that loose, but for now it cured the alignment problem.

(Thought...did the measurements...believe I could fit more of them on there. Besides the issue one, would add one mid way between breech and the issue band.  Would need to slot the barrel and inlet the stock, but belive two of them might do the job right.)

Of course, now the front sight isn't quite level.  That's held in by a screw and a nut that runs through a roll pin, the roll pin rides in another slot in the barrel. In my case, the roll pin was too long...sticking out on both sides a little bit, wich didn't let the screw and nut do any real clamping.  Shortening the roll pin a bit let the scew and nut clamp...and gave me enough rotational slack to get the front sight standing level.

Test fire:

Shoots on target with windage just about in the middle range...elevation is cranked to near the bottom to be "on" at  25yards...which puts you on again at about 45yards.  Shooting 665fps at rounds 12-22 with RWS "Club" (which are light).  Getting an average of 653fps with 8.1gr. pellets. The heat proably had a lot to do with the vel. figures (was in the middle 90's). Did notice it's slightly faster with a new charge (about 3 clicks at 25yards) and slower fter 40 shots (again about 3 click from "normal"). For plinking, is easier to just hold a bit over or under.

Things changed:

That safety flopping throuh 180degrees is retarded....lines so close to the stock, you have to pick at it to get it up from on safe.   Supect the vast majority of owners just ignore the safety completely.

Removed action..drilled trigger guard for a limiting pin that makes the safey stop while the end is sticking into the trigger gurad (where your trigger finger can just flick it forward).  Test the safety for functioning to be sure YOURS  engages like this one.  Small pin...dipped in epoxy and tapped into it's close fitting hole (if nothing else, can cut the last 3/8" of the shank of the drill that made the hole).

With the lowest pin that would reliably work still wouldn't pass through the stock in dissassembly...so a small groove was filed (can do it with a triangular file if you are careful and have the time) to let the pin pass.  Could inlett a big slot and let the whole darned safey assembly pass if you've the urge...and I intend to get around to that.

The nut that holds the stock in recessed deeply into the stock and needs a split screwdriver to get on and off.  That is also BS..trot on down to the hardware store of a stack of washers that will let the issue nut tighten tight BEFORE the theaded part sticks up in the middle...converting it to a standard screwdrive rather that a split tip.  If you get ambitions, can soldier the washers together into a single unit...or lathe an Al. spacer.

Like the little rifle...will be changing the stock a bit and refinishing after the changes.  Too many sharp edges where my hand is supose to fit, and the finger groove was made for some alien life form rather than a muman...but that's all fixable with time and sandpaper (and a  stock refinish after)

Robert

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RE: New guy's review
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2006, 02:17:03 PM »
Nice review, if you would want an easy way to slow it done use a transfer seal from a newer QB-78, smaller hole and it seals great. I've got some spares if you can't find one. Mike
flyingdragonairrifles@hotmail.com

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RE: I haven't seen much about any of you QB guys
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2006, 02:30:26 PM »
Can't say I've done anything to modify mine but add a muzzlebrake and a scope. The brake didnt stay on long however since it added nothing to the grouping.  Thats where this rifle gives me fits.  I tried various pellets. Sometimes it shoots well and other times its all over the place.  There doesnt seem to be much rhime to it.  I put 35 different pellets through it from SS there were some that were ok nothing super, until I got to the Beeman Trophy.  At 40 yards it put 10 into one ragged hole about an 3/4 of an inch across, and that was shooting without waiting between shots. Now thats not bad. My R9 liked them too so I bought a couple of tins to do some real testing.  The QB just doesnt like this batch and the R9 shoots them more consistently but not much better.  The QB will plant 2 one on top of the other then plant 3 more one on top of the other but 2 inches away.  It shows the same tendencies with other pellets that show promise.  I don't know whats up.  I'm about to give up on the beast.  Should I replace the barrel?

Offline ribbonstone

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RE: New guy's review
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2006, 02:53:17 PM »
Great....but I may not need it.

Tried the gun from inside the house (wife was away..so  cranked the AC down and got the place to 72degrees and let the rifle get to room temp.) and got some vel. readings that are a lot closer to what I expected (lost an average of 39fps, but it wasn't an exhaustive test).

99% of my shooting is at 20-25yards, and going faster just isn't a big help for that.  Don't use this rifle to hunt...well, did zap a squirrel that thought my garage roof's flashing was a good material to gnaw on, but that was a target of oportunity rather than hunting.


Will be contacting various sites (yours included) for a good set or two of spare seals...the issue seals work fine, but my expectation of Chinese seals isn't extreamly high.
Robert

Offline ribbonstone

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RE: I haven't seen much about any of you QB guys
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2006, 03:08:28 PM »
Testing pellets often shows up some odd results....pellets other's swear ar the best often turn out to be useless in your rifle, and other peoplets no one seems to mention toss fantastic groups.  

Found one example today that surprised me:
For whatever reason, an old Daisy 777 (pistol ) shoots Beeman Kodiaks great....not those heavy pellets barely break 310fps in that pistol and I expected them to shoot poorly.  Shoots other pellets well, but at least one brand of very highly rated pellets patterened about like an improved cylinder 12ga.

-----

Try a clean barrel.  I know...you ain't buring nothing, so how could fouling be a problem?  But a passs or two of a white patch will show that barrels still get filthy....lead... coughed up congealed lube...mystery funk.  Some barrels are a little rough, and that proably accounts for the leading.

So when testing pellets, the only uniform condition we can create is "clean"...is a pain, but it does help.


You're going to hate the other suggestion just becasue it is so UGLY...but I swear it works.  For the QB eed two 2" lengths of 1/2" wooden dowel, some floor wax, and a roll of duct tape.  

Charge the rifle.  lay the 1/2" dowel in the area between the barrel and main tube, pressed forward to butt up against the rear of the barrel band.  Wax the wooden part of the fore end near the tip. TAPE THE DEVIL OUT OF IT..rolling the tape around barrel, dowels, and stock (thw wax will keep the sticky from peeling the factory finsih off).   The 1/2" dowel is kind of optional, but find that it pressues on both the bottom tube and the barrel at the same time, which stabilizes them to eachother well....proably would work just taping the devil out of it, but are more likly to tweak the barrel off to the left or tright without the dowels.

Now test.  Is butt-ugly, but if that barrel band is shifting and allowing the barrel to move, this test will stop that.

Not a "clean" type of test, but it has the dual virtures of (1) working and (2) requiring no modifications at all...can undo the test leaving no sign.
Robert

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RE: I haven't seen much about any of you QB guys
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2006, 12:15:59 AM »
Cool!  Thanx for the tip, I'll give it a "shot". LOL  If this settles it down, then whats the cure?  Replacing the band?


Offline ribbonstone

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RE: I haven't seen much about any of you QB guys
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2006, 11:01:52 AM »
Wish I knew.

Right now, the band is steel-epoxied in place...which is working fine...but expect I'll have a fight on my hands when time comes to get it off.  

The band design isn't all that great...can't really stand much stress with that tiny little screw.  There is proably enough room to deepen the notch in the barrel and use a "real" screw, but the band itself doesn't seem all that strong.

----
Believe the only time I'll need to get that band off is to change the seal between main tube and barrel....so I'll proably feeeze the epoxy band (wth CO2 of course) and rap it with a plastic hammer to try to break the bond of the epoxy.
---
Could be some oher reasons for the accuracy problems...a burr in the breech (at the gas transfer hole) could do it...catching on some pellets but not others.  The barrel crown is always worth a look-see as well.
Robert

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RE: New guy's review
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2006, 04:06:58 PM »
Did you know the original(crosman 160) had the funky "remove before takedown" safety?Iritating even on a top quality american gun....

Offline DanoInTx

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RE: I haven't seen much about any of you QB guys
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2006, 04:16:09 PM »
I'm tryin', I'm tryin'!!!!

hehe, all kidding aside, now that I own one of these it sure would be fun to hear everyone else talk about them.  Really hate talking to myself, but also can't complain as every question I've brought up has been answered in detail.  This is a fantastic little gun, I want about a zillion more....if anybody doesn't like them, send them to me, I will feed, water, and give them a good home...

My stock is going to be here soon, I can feel it!!!!

Oh yea, while I'm here, is there any way besides the obvious honing and lubing to get the bolt to close easier/smoother?  Mine sure is a dog...

Dan
Dan

Current shooters: Beeman HW97K .177 with Hawke Eclipse 4x16x50SFAO and Steve C. stock, Beeman R9 .177 with Hawke Airmax 4-12x40AO and Gene\'s Midas touch, Air Arms S200 with Bushnell Banner 6x24x40AO Rowan brass bling and Steve C. custom stock, BAM B25, BAM B40 .177 with BSA 3x12x44AO, Benjamin Marauder .22, Benjamin 397 pumper.

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Air gunzzzzzz, air gunzzzzzz, air gunzzzzzzz!!!  ...You will feel better\" T.E.C.2008

Offline ribbonstone

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RE: New guy's review
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2006, 01:42:18 PM »
Couple of additions.

Fixing the barrel band's lower section to the tube but not the barrel (upper) section seems to work best for this rifle.  Gives as much stability as it can without compromising dissassembley...band just stayes attched to the lower tube when you remove the barrel.

The fiber "dust filiter" inside teh valve is proabably the #1 casue of exhasut valve leaking,  Filter tends to shed...the fibers get caught...rifle leaks gas from barrel.  Will let you know if there is a problem, but I just tossed the filter.

Loose bolt handle will give the same signs as a worn out bolt-probe o-ring: little puff of gas in the face when fired.
-------
Haven't had time to chronograph, but decided to try to get it DOWN to something closer to 600FPS. by changing the hammer spring  to a slightly lighter one (rather than changing valve spring to a heavier one).
Robert

Offline ribbonstone

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New Guy's review---updated
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2006, 09:39:17 AM »
Leaked....ordered o-rings.

Figured as long as I'm taking it apart (again) may as well get new seals and do the Charlie-tune.

It's that #*&$(*@%@ fiber washer degenerating...valve catches fibers and it leaks.  The valve itself isn't cut...works fine once you get the bit of futz off it.  Toss the fiber washer... did make one from a differnt bit of fiber that might work just fine (at elast for a time...it will degrade sooner or later as well) but left it out. Figure I'll try it next time.

Just your basic tune...smooth and polish here and there, as outlined, and new seals installed. Didn't bother with an extended rpobe as (1) accuacy is fine as it is and (2) not looking for more speed. Guess I took longer than most to get it polished out...the tune was a 4hour job. Seals turned out to be good, it was the "fluff" getting trapped by the valve that made it leak...but as long as I'm in there, may as well use new valves.

(Big congrats to Charlie...that's a very clearly written tune-job...hat's off!)

Put it togheter carefully,,,and tested it under nearly the same condtions as before: am up 30fps.   This puts the gun in the low 680's (up from 653 last time). Am thinking most of this can be attributed to less friction which would give the hammer a sharper "tap" to the valve and to the removal of some burrs and sharp edges along the gas's path.

Is not the direction I wanted to go...expected some vel. gain, but really wanted to decrease speed to something between 600fps and 625fps (.177).  It just suits the shooting I'll be doing better.

Took it apart again.  Added the new fiber washer I had made (and reinstalled the screen).  May be sorry i did that later.

Figured there were two ways to DECREASE power a bit (correct me were I go wrong)

1.Increase the valve spring's strength.  Not a lot of room, but thicker washer would do that...or the addition of a second thin washer.

2. Decrease the striker spring's strength.

Would guess a bunch of other factors might come into play if I took course #1...beating the valve harder, self ejecting CO2 once the presure reached a certain level (which may not be a bad thing..set my old Hammerli to do just that), balanceing not only valve-spring strength but travel distance, etc.

Went with #2. Figured wacking the valve a bit lighter might get me where I wanted to go without a big down side.

Wasted a good bit of CO2 getting the spring right...charge, test, think, reduce spring a bit more...start over.
(Using a small hemostat locked on the last coil...hemostat makes a good heat sink..and grinding the dead coil a bit at a time on both ends. Reduces length, but doesn't remove the dead end or over heat the spring. Only looking for small reductions in over-all length.)

Settled on 614fps (8gr. pellets shot from indoors at 78degrees...FROM indoors, am in the AC shooting across a 'graph at 10feet  and target at 25yards, both are ouside).  Haven't tested other weights, but expect no real surprzes..the light ones being faster, the heavier ones being slower (with some variation on that theme due to pellet/barrel fit).

This has been fun...think I'll order a .22version and start over (but this time won't be reducing vel.).
-----
Did go into the old beat up tool box and found, found  large size screwdriver.  Was wide enough, but needed the tip gown back and shaped to fit the wide slot in the valve.  Once fittted, it was a tad too short to reach.

Melted the plastic handle off.  The  shank was long enough without the handle...so just drilled the rear of the shank with a 1/4" drill and ran a 1/4" rod though the hole, making a kind of t-handle.

Robert

Offline Gene_SC

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RE: New Guy's review---updated
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2006, 12:58:19 PM »
Well being new to springers and learning about velocities and accuracy. How a tight deviation makes for the best groups. The majority of my springers velocity falls between 600 and 1000 true fps. When I decided to get a QB, I looked at the velocities of the various models. Pretty much the same in the .177 and the .22 of course was a bit lower. I felt that 600 fps was kinda borderline for the type of shooting I normally do. "Lots of paper and some squirrels". Not that below 600 is bad but at 600 fps I could try different weight pellets for paper target groups.

Anyway I bought my first QB 78t .177 and let CDT do his regular tune on it. I love shooting it and the accuracy is great. Since then I have bought two more QB's. One is a 22 caliber and the other is a 25 caliber. Both were built by Roy Weid from Mountain Air. Both of them shoot above 700 fps and they are a blast to shoot.. I really like the .177 and the .22 the best. The .25 is not as smooth as the other two but pretty accurate.

Two things I really like about my QB's is that they hold tight groups and are lite weight. Easy to shoot for hours...:)

Final note: I have to hand it to you guys that take it upon yourselves to tune your own QB's. I might of tried it 20 years ago but not today...:)

Long live the QB's


Gene
THE ONES I SLEEP WITH: BSA Lightning XL, AA TX-200, AA ProSport, BSA Ultra, HW-97K, Crosman NPSS .177, FX Cyclone, HW-30 Nicle Plated, AA-S200, Crosman Marauder, CZ-634, R-9 DG, Webley/Scott UK Tomahawk, Benji Kantana, Benji Marauder, Benji Discovery.....
....

Gene\'s Tunz n Toyz
Springer Tunin

Offline ribbonstone

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RE: New Guy's review---updated
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2006, 01:53:38 PM »
Well...must have put everything back right.  Fired 25 rounds testing it after the work, left it alone for two days, and fired 10 rounds this afternoon...vel. hasn't started it's downward spiral, so it's not  slow-leaking.

Do agree that tight vel. variations are one indication of potential accuracy...haven't had an accurate gun/pellet combination that showed much variation, neither fast ones (over 900fps) nor match guns (right around 600).  For that matter, have shot stings of 10 shots with a Dasiy 953 (which is pretty cheap) that had a vel. variation of 4fps (and it's pretty slow...but 10 rounds with a low reading of 428 and a high of 432fps over 10 rounds is darned good).

But good pellets certainly play a major role in that...not just weight, but uniformity of both skirt and head size.

That's the good thing bout airguns...you certainly don't have to ever take them apart and fiddle with the innards to enjoy them.

Some do the tune for more power, but in my case, was attempting to de-friction things for smoother more consistant performance.
Robert