IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA

[maple]

As I read through this thread I keep seeing the same issue brought up time and time again.  The 2nd amendment.  I am a gun(s) owner (rifles, shotguns, handguns, airifles and airhandguns) as is the rest of my family and we all hunt.  We are all also democrats, some liberal some moderate.  We like our guns and believe the second amendment is very important but it is not the only amendment in the Constitution.  I sickens me to see how the Constitution, the foundation of the greatest country on earth, has been abused, disregarded, ignored, and shredded by GW and his current administration, particularly the right to privacy and due process.  It also sickens me to see my blue collar job go overseas, to see manufacturing in general go overseas, to see the "redistribution" of middle class wealth over the last 30 years to the wealthiest of the wealthy while my and my wife's paychecks get stretched beyond their limits, to see corporations move overseas to avoid paying American taxes,  to see no bid contracts get handed out to the few coprporations that have politicians in their pockets, to see our troops not get the supplies needed to protect them in battle, to see the privatization of our military, the protector of our freedom, to see our troops denied the benefits they need and were promised once they are lucky enough to return home (yes, I come from a military family), to see small business owners (talk about "free" market) get snubbed out because they can't compete with the coroporate chain store that just moved in....man, I could go on and on...

My point is, or better yet, my question is, how do I afford a gun when I can barely afford gas, food, utilities, healthcare, my house payment, my car payment, etc., and I have to worry about losing my job everytime a company goes under or a corporation decides to manufacture over seas?  There is more to life than the 2nd amendment.  I voted for GW the first time, I put my faith in him and IMO he has failed.  The playing field needs to be leveled and we need an administration that will govern, not rule.  That's why I voted for Obama, and like GW, time will tell if I cast the right vote.

[TCups]

Tim:
Understand your plight and your concerns.  But socialism is the wrong answer.  History clearly shows this.  A strong economy, good jobs and good private insurance are a much better answer.  Look at the world markets and ask yourself if you really think that's where this is all heading.  Think about how much trust you put in government now and how much more control you are about to surrender.

[maple]

I come from middle class America and I am middle class America.  I don't expect or want to be rich, I just want to be able to live and support my family and see that we get the things we need and some of the things we want.  I believe John McCain is a hero and a good American but I also believe he cannot relate to the everyday struggles of middle class Americans when he has no worries about how he will feed his family or get his kids the medical attention they need or how they will pay the heat bill when winter arrives if they lose their job.  For the last year I have listened to radio, watched TV, read magazines and newspapers and blogs from the Left, the Right, and the Center, watched all the debates of the primaries as well as the presidential election and I formed my opinion.  We all have our opinions and we can agree, disagree, or agree to disagree and that is one reason America is the greatest.  I don't believe we are heading toward socialism, I believe we are heading toward unity and that is what will make America strong.

By the way, are there too many Tims on this thread?  Great name but please don't confuse me for other Tims:)

[dave2288]

haha, ok, now we have to make new names for the tims so we know who we're talking to

[maple]

When you're coming up with nicknames be kind

[TCups]

There can be and will be no "unity" on these points, Tim.  Don't delude youserf (oops, that must have actually been a Freudian typo).  Ultimately, as history will prove, there will have only been "right" and "wrong".  I may be wrong -- an irrational part of my intellect even hopes to be wrong about all of this, but I don't think so.  And my beliefs, politics and world view will never be unified with anyone of President-Elect Obama's political views, or Jeremiah Wright's views, or Karl Marx's views, or Saul Alinsky's views, etc, no matter how much "hope, unity, and change" rhetoric are fed to me.  We live in interesting times, it seems.

PS:  I come from, what in retrospect must have been lower middle class, though I never knew it when I was growing up.  And thank God that I was able to achieve what I have achieved these 50 some odd years in this great country!  It wasn't inherited, except in the sense of expectation of hard work and the attitude I was responsible for my own future.  And it certainly wasn't given to me as a government entitlement.  I hope the opportunities will always be there, for you and for all of our children, and for everyone fortunate enough to live in this great country who just wants government to get of of the way and out of our pockets and let us fail or succeed on our own merits.

[maple]

Like I said previously, we all have our own opinions.  Grouping Obama's name with others seems to be a fun pastime for a lot of people.  Who's names do you group with GW's and Cheney's?  I can think of quite a few.  People like to throw the word "socialism" around when referring to Obama as much as people like to throw around the word "dictatorship" when referring to GW.  Opinions, by definition, are not right or wrong.

You are right, as long as you think the way you do and hold the opionons you do there will be no unity, but it is your way of thinking and your opinions and I applaud you for sticking to them.  Maybe reassessing your opinions would make your irrational hopes of being wrong come true:)  Based on the outcome of the election, though, the majority of Americans don't hold those views and opinions (for now, at least).  We do live in interesting times.

[airgun/cuz]

I got a nickname for the new PREZ,,,,,,,I think SLIM SHADY fits the script for a non-citizen PREZ.....   BTW.....Is the economy all GW fault....who knows? He obviously gets blamed on a daily basis,,,,,,,if-so what about the job he has done to keep Terrorist from attacking U.S. soil,,,,I feel pretty safe at night when I sleep,,,,,,,,last time I checked my freedom & my way of life was still in tact,,,,,,that's why I will & can say that anyone who voted for this undercover terrorist/racist/liar deserves everything they are gonna get........NOTHING!   I don't get why someone who has supported the RED  PARTY decides to jump ship & turn BLUE,,,,,,Where is the loyalaty,maybe that's the problem,,,,
McCain is a hero & loyal to this country& he has been for a very long time,,,I believe that he put the country first & he had the best interest for the country in mind,,,,,I believe SLIM SHADYS best interest was himself by becoming the first african-american prez so that he can make history...why wouldn't McCain be able to relate to you, me or whom-ever may-be middle-class,,,,yet you believe that SLIM SHADY can,,,,,,,WHY?        What is wrong with expressing concerns toward the 2nd amendment,,,,I thought this was an airgun forum for people who appreciate gun/airguns.....of course he wants to ban guns,,,,this will make it easier for his terrorist cousins to take control of you & me as we get fitted for a TURBAN....LOL!! :p    OBAMA IS A JERK IN MY BOOK,,,,,,,,,,Truth is,my book is the only book that matters to me,,,we all have opinions just like we all have backside,,,,,,,I am never gonna be a BENEDICT ARNOLD,,,,I was raised RED,,,,,I will die RED,,,,,,,,,,

[TexasShooter72]

This has got to be the single longest thread I think I've ever seen on this forum.

[airgun/cuz]

Tim,,,you voted for GW,,,now you vote for SLIM SHADY,,,,,,a bit confusing for a New York boy like myself,,,,,,I don't see the unity in backing SLIM SHADY,yet bashing the man you voted for last time around,,,,,,what are you gonna do when SLIM SHADY let's you & your family down,,,,bash him too,,,,,,,vicious cycle,,,when does it end

[airgun/cuz]

Matt,,,,I think your HAIR might be the longest.... :p

[TexasShooter72]

Now s'cuse me while I do some swearing...

BUSH, OBAMA, PELOSI, GINGRICH, MOORE, WOLFOWITZ, FILTH, FLARN, FILTH, FLARN...

Okay.  I feel better now.

[TCups]

While you are surely right that truth can be a relative thing, honesty is being truthful, as best you know the truth, with others and integrity is being truthful with yourself.  

Bush and Cheney I associate with an alternative Kerry and Edwards -- I associate them with an alternative to someone who opted out of military service by getting three quick purple hearts, two of which were almost certainly self inflicted, with someone who pretended to throw away those medals and sat in on peace talks in Paris with ChiComs while others, including  some on this forum were still fighting honorably for their country, married the Heinz Ketsup fortune and then had the unmitigated gall to run representing himself as a Vietnam war hero.  And an alternative to Edwards, who, as it turns out, who is a lecherous adulterer, cheating on his very ill wife, and shyster lawyer who made his millions selectively suing OB-GYN doctors who didn't do mostly unnecessary C-sections, for multimillion dollar jury settlements on wrongful birth cases.  

Maybe Bush and Cheney were the wrong alternative, and I am sure you can list just as many Bush/Cheney offenses.  But guess what?  Bush and Cheney are no longer running for office.  The choices, no matter what the campaign rhetoric, were McCain and Palin vs. Obama and Biden.  But since you ask, perhaps yes, I associate Bush and Cheney with friendly to big business and capitalism.  And perhaps in the narrow sense of an organized war on terrorists, Fascists, if I understand the definition of that term correctly.  But neither do I believe that US Constitutional rights are extended to enemy combatants, nor that they are entitled to a civilian trial in US courts.  But that is a matter of law, I suppose and not what I argue or defend here.

As for intrusiveness into citizens privacy, that certainly occurs.  But Bush and Cheney have no monopoly on that.  Or did you forget the secret FBI files of political opponents of the Clintons in the Whitehouse basement, or electronic easdropping on Newt Gingrich's cell phone conversations, or the public distribution of Sarah Palin's emails, or how about the "investigation" of Joe the plumber by civil authorities using government computers?  

Check your integrity and tell me again that you sincerely believe only or primarily Republicans are the "big brother" threat in government.  Bush and Cheney were no angels and were far from what would have been my perfect choice, but ultimately, they were, as always, only one of a very few alternatives presented to the American voter.

As I said earlier, God I miss Ronald Regan.  Who do you think the Gipper would have been voting for in this one?  Be honest.

PS:  As I type, the market finished down another 443 points or about another 5%  Poof!  If you had $100K still in your 401-K retirement savings when this thread started, you probably lost about $10K in the course of this debate.  The worst post-election performance of the US stock markets in history.  Congratulations.

[dave2288]

joe, i guess ppl don't understand what pollitics is all about...look it up in the dic. and it'll say liar.  lol, its down to not voting for who will be a good leader, but who is the lesser of two evils....then when they don't hold up what they promised, everyone hates em, and swears that they didn't see it coming...lol, obama's ads were tergeting the dumb americans that believe that buch is the devil himself, and it worked...not trying to attack obama ppl voters...just the ppl that did it for the wrong reason...if anyone voted for him becaus ethey believe what he said about having another bush, you might as well crawl up and die, cuz that was stupid...if you voted for him because you believe that his plans for our country are what will benefit our country, then ok...but i doubt many ppl even know what his plan is with anything...and the statements about bush and mccain being the same...come on...i can't believe that in this country, the melting pot of the world, anyone can say that any 2 ppl are the same...honestly...does that mean all democrats are the exact same person?...i guess...doesn't matter what they stand for...lets just decide that any democrat is john, and any republican is jeff...so we have 2 ppl in this country, is that right?  am i on track so far?...ignorance...
\
again, anyone that voted for obama because they like his plan for our country, don't think i'm talking to you.

my girlfriends sisters voted for obama, and said that its cuz we need a black pres...i got so mad when i heard that...since when did some1's color make them more suitible to run a country?  there are only 2 explanations...1:they are racist, and think black ppl are better to some degree than any other ppl, or 2, they are stupid, and don't know anything about what a president has to do...anyone else out there that voted for him(like oprah) just because he's black, what are you?  racist, or stupid?

[nutterhater]

So everyone knows, nutterhater and maple are the same person.  One name is for use while at work and the other while at home...anyway

I voted for GW in 2000 thinking at the time he was the better candidate. I did not vote for him in 2004.   He has given me 8 years to help me form my opinion of him. Bashing him would be to say something before I had given him a chance. As time went on his actions and the actions of his administration made me change my opinion.  People use the term "sheeple".  To me "sheeple" are those who blindly vote or think strictly along party lines.  There is good and bad logic on both sides, the hard part is deciding which candidate you think is the best for America based on information from all sources.  In 4 years my opinions may change.  Its not a viscious cycle, it is informed voting.  Obama won by bringing people from all walks of life together, by finding common ground for those people to stand on.  That's unity.

I'm getting tired of this.  Obama won, we all have to live with it for the next 4 years, can we talk about hunting tree rats now?  Hunting is a lot more fun than politics, I think we can all agree on that.