Author Topic: Open Pistol Questions  (Read 10157 times)

Offline CaptGeorge

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Re: Open Pistol Questions
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2009, 04:05:18 PM »
WOW!  This is getting complicated.

I'm not an expert here, but I suggest we keep it simple. Shooting at 10 meter pistol bulls reduced to 5 meters (10 -7) just means I'm going to shoot a lot of eggs (zeros). How about shooting 5 shots at two full size reduced targets?  See attached.

The attached image was created with TargetGen V1.0.5.  However, I reduced it to 25% for posting. I can upload a full size target or shooters can use the program.  It's the FREE version.

This way, when I miss the bull, I can at least score SOME points. LOL  Maybe, it would also encourage other "not-so-good" pistol shots like me to join in and have fun.

Offline TCups

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Re: Open Pistol Questions
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2009, 04:36:13 PM »
Why wouldn't you score anything less than a 7-ring?  That doesn't seem right, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that.  The square target 10-ring is 1 cm, smaller than the 1/2 in 10 ring on the 4-bull Glock target.  The black bull on the Glock target (10, 9 rings) is 1 in.  The rings on the Glock target score 10,9,8,7,6,5,4 over a 3.5 in diameter target, which would give substantially higher (and somewhat less arbitrary scores) compared to the square targets, which score 0 outside of 50 mm horizontal or vertical or 66 mm on a diagonal through the center of the bull.  In other words, shooting on the diagonal scores better than shooting on horizontal or vertical at the same distance from the center of the target.  Somewhat arbitrary where precise scoring is concerned, IMO.  And the Glock 4-bull target is, roughly, a half scale 10 meter pistol target, ready to shoot.

As for the 10-meter pistol targets, the 10-ring is 1 cm, and the black (10-7 rings) is 60 mm and the overall target is about 6 in, I think.  So at 1/2 scale, the black (10-7 rings) would be 30 mm with the 10-ring roughly the size of a .177 pellet, and the overall target, would be 3 in in diameter with rings scoring 10, 9, 8, ... 1.

So actually, either the Glock target or the half-scaled 10-meter pistol target would be easier, not harder, to score on than the square targets.  The concentric rings on both are more accurate for scoring with respect to distance from the center of the bull.  And the center black bull is much more appropriate for target shooting with open sights on a pistol.  

The intent isn't to make things more complicated.  It is to make it easier to aim, shoot and score a match.  But heck, I'm easy --  I'll shoot anything.

Offline CaptGeorge

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Re: Open Pistol Questions
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2009, 05:23:01 PM »
Tommy,

You and I agree, I think. I just don't want to shoot at15-20 little bulls like the steroid rifle match with my open sight, stock 1377 pistol.

I also don't like the square targets because I find it difficult to get a good sight picture - not enough contrast for these "old" eyes. And, you're right about the scoring being somewhat arbitrary.

As far as which target, the purists here may disagree, but anything with a decent sized black bull works for me. The Glock target bulls are a little smaller than a 10M pistol target reduced for 5M. The scoring would be higher since the Glock 10-9 covers most of the 10-7 on the reduced target.  However, the Glock would be easier to score on ragged holes or rips on "computer paper. Overall, the Glock target may be the best choice.

I was just trying to offer an alternative that would keep our "expert 10M pistolers" happy, and yet allow a beginner score SOME points. After all, the more participation the better.

George

Offline airgunandy

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Re: Open Pistol Questions
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2009, 12:03:33 AM »
The four bull Glock target looks OK to me if that's the one we use. I've been printing targets on 110# cardstock (found at WalMart and other stores next to regular copy paper) and it doesn't tear out as bad as regular 20# paper.

Which target are we using this week, whichever one we decide on here or still the squares?
If we are going to be using whatever we decide on here we better pick something fast or there won't be time to shoot! :)

Offline JQR

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Re: Open Pistol Questions
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2009, 12:54:35 AM »
Couple of thoughts based on some of some of the comments above.

Complicated - unfortunately yes. I'm sorry if I've added to that I was just trying to settle some things that keep coming up.

Target - no clear leader with 3 tied at 3 votes but the squares are def losing. Can we say that a half scale 10m target is the way to go? I like the glock 4 target and i like that it's publicly available but I also like scores on my rings (i know, that's silly but I do). I know I had a copy of one somewhere but i can't find it at the moment.

Pellant Software - I do like it. Easy to play around with but as was pointed out it def has limitations, but hey it's better at drawing the rings than me, especially since I usually scan something than play around in 'Paint'.

Offline CaptGeorge

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Change My Vote...
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2009, 10:54:34 AM »
Change my vote to Glock.

The Glock target is exactly the same as GAMO5 except it has a black bull instead of white. Other targets include black bull except for squares. So it seems larger rings with black bulls are preferred.  So unless anyone objects, I suggest we shoot the Glock this week.

Offline ac12basis

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Re: Open Pistol Questions
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2009, 11:11:33 AM »
A personal comment about targets.

When I shoot at 10 meters, I shoot at the 10m AP target, and if I score poorly that's my problem.  
But if after shooting it you feel frustrated...use a bigger target.  (just keep on reading)

And for AR...
With my match rifles, I shoot the regulation 10m AR target cuz that is what I WANT to shoot, not that I can shoot it well.
BUT...I feel that the regulation 10m AR target is NOT a target that a new shooter should start out on.  It is an OLYMPIC level target.  I think it is for this very reason that the NRA has a larger target, I think it is the TQ-5  25 ft training target.  In fact for new shooters, or plinking rifles, I pull out the much bigger 10m AP target instead.  

My idea here is to be able to shoot a "satisfactory" score, such that you will keep on shooting, rather than quit out of disgust.  And that is exactly how I felt when I first started shooting 10m AR, my scores were SO BAD that I was ready to quit.  Then when you get better, you can move on to the smaller targets.

Here is what was done on the StraightShooters Challenge matches.
They used 2 DIFFERENT targets, a larger "novice" target and a smaller "marksman" target.
It would be up to the shooter to determine which category and thus target he shoots at, based on his skills and the gun he is shooting.
Example, my scores take a nasty tumble when I shoot my Webby Hurricane, compared to my Walter match pistol.  So I would shoot the marksman target with my Walther, and the novice target with my Hurricane.
If you start getting very high novice scores, then it is time to step up to the marksman target.

This concept is somewhat like golf.  The pros hit from the back pro tee.  The men hit from the middle mens tee.  The women and duffers like me hit from the front womens/dufers tee.

Offline JQR

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New Target ! or ?
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2009, 02:28:00 PM »
ac12basis
I like the idea of tiers but not sure I want to tackle that right now. If we use one target we can figure out how to factor in some % reduction to the scoring in time or start a different match or diff target.

All,
Since they are almost identical in size I'm willing to call our new target EITHER the gamo5 / regular gamo / or the glock 4. Take your choice.

I almost hate to ask but... are we still doing 20 shots.... (someone decide please :-) )


Offline airgunandy

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RE: New Target ! or ?
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2009, 02:49:54 PM »
Gamo5, Gamo, or Glock4.
Four bulls, five shots each for a total of 20 shots? Easy math. If we do 10 shots over four bulls, how does that work?

Offline gamo2hammerli

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Re: Open Pistol Questions
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2009, 03:17:20 PM »
Two to three shots per bull is good....any more and it becomes hard to score for the good shooters.
Gamo: Expotec .177 + Big Cat .177 + Viper .177 + Whisper .177, Hammerli Titan .177, Diana model 24 .177, RWS-Diana P5 Magnum pistol .177, Crosman: G1 Extreme .177 + Storm XT .177 + Sierra Pro .177 + 1377 pistol .177, Air Arms S410SL .22, BSA Scorpion T10 .22, FX Cyclone .177, Remington Air Master 77 .177 + BB\'s,

Offline CaptGeorge

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Re: Open Pistol Questions
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2009, 05:39:25 PM »
Quote
gamo2hammerli - 3/30/2009  10:17 PM

Two to three shots per bull is good....any more and it becomes hard to score for the good shooters.


Sounds good, Stan. I tried shooting the Glock today on computer paper stapled to cardboard (this is how I shoot open rifle & steroid).  However, my low powered 1377 (3 pumps) left tears and rips with 5 shots per target.

How we shoot four targets: 3 shots on upper two targets and 2 shots on lower two. And, you can shoot either Gamo5 or Glock depending on your preference for black or white bulls.

Offline CaptGeorge

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Or we can just shoot the steroid target.
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2009, 06:06:16 PM »
[Too late to edit prior post.]

Much as I hate to say it.....I'm almost ready to shoot the "steroid" target - one shot per target.  Same size bull as Gamo5/Glock. Easy scoring, and, nice black bull for iron sights.

QUICK!!  Somebody make a decision before I go CRAZY!

Offline imadogman

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Re: Open Pistol Questions
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2009, 09:29:12 AM »
A suggestion.  If you have trouble scoring your target, why not shoot less shots at each bullseye, and just shoot 2 shots at 10 bullseyes instead of 4 shots at 5 bullseyes?  Just shoot your first 10 shots, and change the target...after all 5M isn't too far to walk ;-)
I have been shooting the 10M Air Pistol target at about 8M, and I have trouble scoring that target, because I will usually have 2 or more shots in the same hole, but who knows which hole, and how many?  If I only shoot 2 shots at each bullseye, I know for sure where the second shot went.
\"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice\"

\"Sailing through life at the speed of Dark\"

Offline gamo2hammerli

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Re: Open Pistol Questions
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2009, 11:09:25 AM »
It's almost half-way through the week.....we have to choose a target sheet.....if we drag this out any longer we might end up losing the interest of the few members shooting this match.  I will go with the Gamo5 target sheet with 3 shots per target, a total of 15 shots....easy to score....and they have a good contrast.

What say you 5M Open Pistol shooters?
Gamo: Expotec .177 + Big Cat .177 + Viper .177 + Whisper .177, Hammerli Titan .177, Diana model 24 .177, RWS-Diana P5 Magnum pistol .177, Crosman: G1 Extreme .177 + Storm XT .177 + Sierra Pro .177 + 1377 pistol .177, Air Arms S410SL .22, BSA Scorpion T10 .22, FX Cyclone .177, Remington Air Master 77 .177 + BB\'s,

Offline JQR

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Re: Open Pistol Questions
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2009, 12:50:30 PM »
Do it.
The Gamo and the glock 4 target are so close.... Anyway. NO SQUARES, 15 Shots, 1 target or 15 - as many as you feel you need to score properly, Gamo, Gamo5 or the glock thing....  Use you fav. I'm going to shoot the gamo5. I have a bunch printed and I don't need more different versions of targets to worry about.

Deadeye - I recognize that screenname from another forum and online match format. I'm Bean over there. Actually, I'm Bean almost everywhere and I think I was Bean here the first time I signed up but I couldn't get back into that ID. Come shoot with us.